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Roderick

Legal rights for dolphins and whales

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I was kidding. I was kind of hoping that Orv would explain his view more clearly/thoroughly, though.

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Woops. Yes, post. Though enough cats with enough keyboards...

I've come to think of sentience as the ability to quantify feelings, hence my statement that some people would be, by clinical definition, not sentient due to various mental illnesses. This definition could be incredibly wrong, but I assume that when a lion eats a particularly juicy gazelle it does not go "This is happiness. I am happy because I am eating this gazelle, and happiness is a feeling I enjoy." It's going (I assume) "Mmmm, gazelle. Yummy. Happy. Happy? Happy. Time to nap." I often entertain the idea that the animal kingdom is full of species more intelligent than us who are just waiting for us to fuck up. Cats, mostly. I don't mean to imply I don't think animals don't deserve respect, or to be treated well. Big Cat Diaries is my favorite show that has ever existed for a very large range of reasons, not least of all big cats are awesome. That said, if it's meat, it isn't going to kill me if I eat it, and it isn't human, I don't really care.

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Did you even read anything I wrote, Orv?

This is a goddamned mess of reasoning you have there. First you use an assumption about what animals feel as a reason to classify them as objects. Then you assure us that animals do deserve respect, but follow that up with 'if it's not human, I don't really care if we kill and eat it'. I think what may be very useful to you is if you read some articles about animal sentience. Then at least you don't have to assume anymore, because I get the feeling you haven't actually delved into any of this. Your opinion smacks of ignorance.

Edit: This is a glossary on the ideas surrounding animal rights: http://en.wikipedia....i/Animal_rights

And the paragraph on consciousness here is concise: http://en.wikipedia....nimal_cognition

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Having respect for and being willing to kill and eat an animal are not mutually exclusive things...

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I was worried more about the 'I don't care' attitude, but I'm actually willing to own this one too: why wouldn't it be?

What does respect for animals mean? Respect and care for their wellbeing and sanctity? I would say breeding, keeping, killing and eating them would constitute a violation of both, no matter how 'respectful' you drop the cleaver. Furthermore, I suspect this attitude is a result of the disconnect we have in our society between actual live animals and the unrecognizable bits of meat that we purchase in stores. It's easy to rationalize that away as not the same thing. If we'd follow the animal from baby to boiling pot, raising and killing them ourselves, maybe then one would be able to use the 'I kill and eat animals with respect' argument. In our fucked up, clinically clean, bio-industrial meat-machine society, where eating meat is a capricious luxury, it's too easy and disingenuous.

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Well, I don't care, either, and I respect animals for what they are (animals), and I will eat the fuck out of 'em until the day I die. They are just so yummy!

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I think you are cutting yourselves short with that attitude. There is a whole world of thought out there that you're (purposefully?) not tapping into, that would enrich you and make you a more conscious human being. Don't be contented with your views so easily.

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It was a conscious choice on my part and I thought about it a lot, but I decided I would either eat other animals or not at all. In my case, I really, really like meat. Which I understand is a selfish choice, but that's motivated by the fact that I love delicious food. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say that my quality of life would be worse if I couldn't eat meat. I don't see how not eating meat would make me a more conscious human being... Maybe one with less moral conflict over the killing of animals for what's essentially, ultimately, my pleasure. A part of respecting the animal for me, means a quick, clean death and using as much of the animal as possible. I can live with the relativistic morality, as it makes my own life a little better.

I agree that there's a disconnect between meat bought in stores and live animals, and I think it'd be good if people were more interested in where their food comes from and how it's done.

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This whole 'animals aren't sentient beings' thing is a very dodgy attitude seemingly based on wishful thinking and/or ignorance. Having grown up knowing more animals than I did people until I was about 15, I can assure you that even cows, who you seem to regard as non-sentient beef-machines, are perfectly capable of experiencing a range of feelings and emotions, including fear and pain. It's extremely dangerous thinking to assume that because you don't understand and cannot communicate with something, it isn't as 'good' or 'valuable' as you and therefore doesn't deserve respect.

It's an abhorrent and disgustingly selfish and/or misinformed attitude that is too often used as an excuse for gluttony and the tolerance of extreme cruelty. I don't care if you eat meat but justifying it with 'animals aren't sentient and I don't care' is not only a dick move, but also a badly misinformed one.

There is now a race between, I think, two different big companies to produce the first viable lab-grown meat, which is an exciting development. I think that it will probably be pretty hard to produce an authentic steak immediately, but I see no reason why lab-grown meat couldn't quickly replace a lot of the cheaper/processed stuff in peoples diets.

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Addendum: If they ever make non-sentient beef-machines, I will give up sentient beef.

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It was a conscious choice on my part and I thought about it a lot, but I decided I would either eat other animals or not at all. In my case, I really, really like meat. Which I understand is a selfish choice, but that's motivated by the fact that I love delicious food. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say that my quality of life would be worse if I couldn't eat meat. I don't see how not eating meat would make me a more conscious human being...

My post said that reading up on the odd 200 years of thought about animal sentience and animal rights would make them more conscious human beings, not that they should give up on eating meat. Obviously, if you've thought about it properly and came to the conclusion that you want to continue to eat meat for utilitarian reasons, that's fine and many people do that. Everyone may decide for themselves what they want to eat and where they draw the line - but it should be an informed decision.

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What does respect for animals mean?

I was mostly responding to that, but in the context of my own motivation. Plus, I sometimes care what people think about me and I went "I LOVE MEAT, HUR HUR" but never elaborated on anything and I wanted to. And to distance myself from the cold-blooded animal murder-king Orvidos. :grin:

Alternatively: What? Where am I? What's going on?

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I think you are cutting yourselves short with that attitude. There is a whole world of thought out there that you're (purposefully?) not tapping into, that would enrich you and make you a more conscious human being. Don't be contented with your views so easily.

That's incredibly presumptuous of you to say.

Don't mistake my apathy for lack of desire to learn. It's just that, nothing I learn, short of an animal I eat suddenly being able to communicate with me on a deep and personal level, will stop me from eating them.

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I was vegetarian for four years, but I was a shit one and a large part of my motives were not liking meat. I later learned that the reason for that was my parents buying crap meat and preparing it badly for my entire childhood.

I have no moral justification for eating meat and some qualms (especially on the basis of more resources used to produce it, and parts of agriculture being really quite fucked up), and try to eat less, but my body kind of sings when I put steak in it. Ultimately, we evolved to eat meat. I'd love for there to be an alternative as satisfying to eat, or for lab grown meat to become viable.

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For as much as I love meat, I actually don't like steak! Weird, I know. I'm more of a poultry guy, for the most part.

If they ever create a lab-grown meat that actually tastes as good as real meat, then that would be interesting. I don't believe it will happen any time soon.

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That's incredibly presumptuous of you to say.

Don't mistake my apathy for lack of desire to learn. It's just that, nothing I learn, short of an animal I eat suddenly being able to communicate with me on a deep and personal level, will stop me from eating them.

My presumption is only matched by your rudeness when, rather than committing to an intellectually honest discussion, you chose to respond to my carefully constructed rebuttal with 'well, I don't care'. Consider that you have given me no reason to assume anything else than laymanship when it comes to being educated about any of this. Consider also that this is the second time that you've entered a topic with strong views, only to ignore what others are saying and kill further discourse by stating how impossible it will be to change your mind. If this is how you are going to act, please stay out of future discussions and save everyone including yourself a lot of grief.

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Consider also that this is the second time that you've entered a topic with strong views, only to ignore what others are saying

I'm sorry I gave that impression. I can say with 100% certainty I have yet to ignore a single post in this thread or another with strong views.

and kill further discourse by stating how impossible it will be to change your mind

That was SORT OF my intention here, yes. The statement was in jest*, but it's also true. You've yet to present me with any information new to me, and I fucking love eating meat. Sorry if you don't. Sorry if that, for some reason, bothers you. No doubt this comes off as insincere. ): Love meat.

*EDIT: Technically it was all in jest, so I've removed the "half" qualifier! Jest and truth are not mutually exclusive! I mean, it really wasn't meant to be a goddamn attack on your person or your opinions or your willingness to share them. Don't take it that way.

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I love eating meat. And ditto what Nachimir said (except for the part where his parents fed him shitty meat).

I'm totally for recognizing dolphins and whales and primates as having more rights, though.

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Yeah, Nachimir put the reason I continue to eat meat pretty well. I consider at this point any meat that was not raised in a cruelty-free environment (or the best that a farmer can guarantee, anyway, as it's hard to prove that) to be "shit meat" now, so we may be on the same page. I heard about that lab-grown hamburger they made a couple of months back though, and would totally switch over completely to "never-was-alive" meat in a second given the opportunity. That development excites me a lot, and would certainly help to alleviate some of my cognitive dissonance.

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My only concern with lab-grown meat is the taste!

It'll undoubtedly be cheaper, which is a big plus. (Eventually.)

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I gave up eating meat at the age of 4, and in truth is was because I was squicked by gristle, bones etc. I've gone back and forth through the omnivore - herbivore continuum through life, but I've never been the sort to eat a lot of meat (I don't cook with meat, for example - mainly because I don't want to give everyone Salmonella).

Seeing videos like this one make me feel empathy for cows - and while they don't make me feel guilty for drinking milk or eating beef, they do make me want to avoid factory farmed meat. Even if a cow is going to be hamburger one day I think it should still get to be happy before then.

Dolphins, however.... dolphin rape caves, man. Dolphin rape caves.

When threads get contentiously fighty about 'controversial' topics, it usually ends with me revising my opinions of some of the posters. And that makes me sad, because I want to continue thinking all of you are hunky-dory nice people, not a bunch of "Green Lantern is the Blindfolded Fool" posters. Also I hope we can get through the US Election without my having to murder any of you.

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Yeah, I'm vegetarian but I (save for the exceptions I'm about to mention) don't mind people eating meat. The things that bug me are: firstly, how greedy some people can be... three meals a day with meat? At least THREE LIVES for each day that you gorge yourself to a bloated, cancerous death which will not just a drain on the NHS and society when it happens, but also a kick in the teeth for the environment in the meantime.

Also: how the 'animals aren't even sentient anyway probably!' argument is used in conjunction with people not giving a shit where their meat comes from. If you're going to eat meat, the least you can do is ensure as best you can that the animal has led the best life possible before its demise. There is really absolutely no excuse for not doing this... Oh except that in my world, animals don't HAVE feelings! Probably. Despite all the evidence to the contrary. Which is convenient because I plan to consume them in the most abhorrent way possible. Now that we're on this topic, I bet people who have been trafficked for sex probably love it too. And also I bet I have a million pounds in the bank, because thinking it probably makes it true after all!

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When threads get contentiously fighty about 'controversial' topics, it usually ends with me revising my opinions of some of the posters. And that makes me sad, because I want to continue thinking all of you are hunky-dory nice people, not a bunch of "Green Lantern is the Blindfolded Fool" posters. Also I hope we can get through the US Election without my having to murder any of you.

Don't hate me, Subbes!

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Maybe if you replied to my letters I wouldn't hate you.

(It's not hatred or anything. It's just that sometimes in contentious threads, it's hard for me to continue assuming good faith rather than "i are edgy" teenager posturing.)

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I'm sorry I gave that impression. I can say with 100% certainty I have yet to ignore a single post in this thread or another with strong views.

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That was SORT OF my intention here, yes. The statement was in jest*, but it's also true. You've yet to present me with any information new to me, and I fucking love eating meat. Sorry if you don't. Sorry if that, for some reason, bothers you. No doubt this comes off as insincere. ): Love meat.

*EDIT: Technically it was all in jest, so I've removed the "half" qualifier! Jest and truth are not mutually exclusive! I mean, it really wasn't meant to be a goddamn attack on your person or your opinions or your willingness to share them. Don't take it that way.

Twig, I don't hate you, nor do I think you must stop eating meat, nor am I bothered that you eat meat. What bothers me is that you don't seem to be willing to engage in an actual discussion about it, but post oneliners and don't reply to valid insights about the nature of animals. If it hasn't been made clear enough at this point, no one here is trying to make people switch to different eating habits - all I ask is that you try thinking about it on a different level, a level beyond 'I like meat and that's why I eat'.

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