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syntheticgerbil

Worst Kickstarter Ever

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This is by far the worst Kickstarter yet:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/575109064/penny-arcade-sells-out

The rewards are only the icing on the cake, how condescending. These two are my favorites:

"Pledge $500 or more

Within reason, Gabe and Tycho will retweet one of your tweets."

"Pledge $1,000 or more

Get added to Tycho's XBOX Live friends list for a year. You'll be one of the 100 that MS allocates to each account, playing and setting up games throughout the year."

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Why? Having an ad-free experience has value. I would rather pay for half the Android games I play than have to deal with ads having not paid for it. If someone is invested in Penny Arcade, why not give them the option to give money for a direct cause? It sure as hell is better than the ambiguous, pointless PayPal donate button.

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As odd as this is, you seem to have so easily forgotten Your World.

E: Or the other MMO Kickstarter with a shitty tech demo that plans to be released as a box + subscription game... in 2016.

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Because I think of Kickstarter as a place where you get funds to make something, not use it to fund something you already have, especially for something like stripping ads. They're going to make their goal though, so it's kind of a moot point on how sleazy I find it.

Althought yeah, Your World, yesh, that's a contender.

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I'm actually okay with the concept (if I were a PA fan I'd happily pay a bit of cash to get rid of ads), but yeah, those rewards are ... something. I'm not even sure condescending covers it. This one is even worse:

PLEDGE $7,500 OR MORE

1 BACKER • Limited Reward (1 of 2 remaining)

Intern at Penny Arcade for a day! You'll be put to real work under the supervision of Khoo. (you will need to arrange travel)

Uhh, what? That's not how employment works. AND SOMEBODY BOUGHT ONE, WHHHHHHHY!?!?!

I think Your World transcends best/worst comparisons.

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Or spend $0 and install an ad-blocking plugin!

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I mean... at least it's honest?

I'm more amused than I am offended. I don't see anything inherently wrong with it, although maybe they should've just done it on their own website, rather than through Kickstarter.

TBH, I'm interested in seeing more of their off-color content. Automata and Lookouts. I really dig that stuff. I kind of wish they'd do a Kickstarter just for that. THEN I'd be willing to chip in.

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I think I am the only person in the world who thinks this is an awesome use of Kickstarter. This is how support of culture should work.

I was actually thinking about doing something like this myself. I am slowly building a fancy new web comic creation+publishing+hosting platform. I was going to make a v0 alpha, release it and then Kickstart further development and support. Now I am not so sure.

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I think I am the only person in the world who thinks this is an awesome use of Kickstarter. This is how support of culture should work.

I was actually thinking about doing something like this myself. I am slowly building a fancy new web comic creation+publishing+hosting platform. I was going to make a v0 alpha, release it and then Kickstart further development and support. Now I am not so sure.

Penny Arcade already has everything. What exactly are they "Kickstarting"? That's the question I think. Your webcomic generator "support further development so I can finish this" makes way more sense for Kickstarter than "Take our already successful website platform, owned by the parent company of a sells-out-in-three-hours bi-costal convention, and pay us for it." I understand a subscription/donation model, direct fan support, etc. That stuff is all awesome, and I'm happy to see Penny Arcade doing it. Kickstarter as the source of it is what makes it feel weird to me. (That and the Twitter-follower-type rewards.)

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Yeah this is weird, if it was a kickstarter for a specific project of theirs, sure... but this.

weird.

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As someone who has been over on the PA forum for almost 10 years (and keeping up with the site since before then), let me say this.

As far as ad-run sites go, PA is unique in that Mike and Jerry have the ability to pick what ads run. That's rare. Not in people wanting to do it, it's rare that it's allowed. But still, they are beholden to ad partners. By making it run through this Kickstarter, they are beholden to the only thing people should ever be accountable to - the viewers / readers. Shit, the Idle Thumbs Kickstarter has allowed for the Thumbs crew to bypass being operated on ads as well.

So, why the high price point? Well, they actually have employees to pay. I think 14 now. PA is more than just a comic site. They're managing and operating a convention and other projects. It's a business. That doesn't mean they're inherently evil (anyone who equates business with being evil is silly). It just means they have shit to pay for. They have people to pay for.

The rewards kind of kick back to jokes they made about Kickstarter long ago, before this year's explosion on it.

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Penny Arcade already has everything. What exactly are they "Kickstarting"? That's the question I think. Your webcomic generator "support further development so I can finish this" makes way more sense for Kickstarter than "Take our already successful website platform, owned by the parent company of a sells-out-in-three-hours bi-costal convention, and pay us for it." I understand a subscription/donation model, direct fan support, etc. That stuff is all awesome, and I'm happy to see Penny Arcade doing it. Kickstarter as the source of it is what makes it feel weird to me. (That and the Twitter-follower-type rewards.)

Since you and the other guys clearly have more experience on the fundee side of things, let me ask - does Kickstarter particularly prefer things that require development rather than just plain-old funding? I feel like the initial goal of the site was to stimulate projects that would never go beyond the conceptual phase, but I also think that Kickstarter is just a framework for funding of just about anything with tiered rewards. Is their company message specific in supporting either one of these (that aren't mutually exclusive, mind you, but are definitely different)?

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Yeah this is weird, if it was a kickstarter for a specific project of theirs, sure... but this.

weird.

Weird I can agree to for sure. But any indication of being wrong or abusive or exploitative is taking the whole thing too far.

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Since you and the other guys clearly have more experience on the fundee side of things, let me ask - does Kickstarter particularly prefer things that require development rather than just plain-old funding? I feel like the initial goal of the site was to stimulate projects that would never go beyond the conceptual phase, but I also think that Kickstarter is just a framework for funding of just about anything with tiered rewards. Is their company message specific in supporting either one of these (that aren't mutually exclusive, mind you, but are definitely different)?

I think Kickstarter likes concrete projects which go from start (or early concept) to finish through their service. "Help us produce and manufacture our band's album," "Help us fund and then attend our event," "Help us realize this crazy piece of industrial design," that sort of thing. Idle Thumbs was probably already pushing the boundaries of a Kickstarter, because we were asking people to fund a space to record and a new website for a podcast -- something nebulous and with no end date.

Another way to put it: Kickstarter seems to strongly prefer projects where the reward is the thing you fund. "By funding [New iPod Dock/New Video Game/Documentary Film/Event] you get [New iPod Dock/New Video Game/Documentary Film/To Attend Event]"

With Idle Thumbs, everybody in the world (not just backers) gets the podcast -- therefore the podcast couldn't be the reward, so we had to invent ancillary stuff to give away for backing us. That's a good sign that we were probably not squarely in the center of Kickstarter's "this is what our site is actually for" ideal circle. We knew that going in, and in part only really thought about Idle Thumbs would work as a Kickstarter because Venus Patrol and The Comedy Button had already done successful Kickstarters. I don't think we would have thought it was appropriate if there wasn't already precedence. We justified it to ourselves because we were going from nothing (other than a microphone in Chris' apartment) to something (a recording studio, a new website, money to try out some small other projects and expand to do things like help Three Moves Ahead) -- there was a "project" there even if the project itself and the rewards didn't line up 1:1. Still weird, but it made sense.

With Penny Arcade it seems even weirder, though. "Removing ads from an existing successful business for a year," while an awesome thing for a community to fund, seems very counter to the specifics of Kickstarter to me. There is usually a "project" of some sort at the heart of every Kickstarter, whereas with Penny Arcade's, it seems they're instead using Kickstarter to change their existing business model, and they've said in the FAQ that if it works, the plan is to use Kickstarter to do that every single year. The idea is fantastic, it's the methods which seem a little off.

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I think Kickstarter likes concrete projects which go from start (or early concept) to finish through their service. "Help us produce and manufacture our band's album," "Help us fund and then attend our event," "Help us realize this crazy piece of industrial design," that sort of thing. Idle Thumbs was probably already pushing the boundaries of a Kickstarter, because we were asking people to fund a space to record and a new website for a podcast -- something nebulous and with no end date. In fact I don't know if Idle Thumbs would even be allowed on Kickstarter at this point, as they updated their guidelines about nebulous or business-related projects like ours. "Removing ads from an existing successful business for a year," while an awesome thing for a community to fund, seems very counter to the specifics of Kickstarter to me.

Well, let's not forget that Idle Thumbs was successful enough too. The only thing that stopped Idle Thumbs in the past was people moving around. I mean, right? I just think it's a little odd to see this argument that Penny Arcade is already successful and therefore it doesn't need help. Tim Schafer is a successful guy too.

Actually no, that last bit of my argument is flawed; Schafer was funding a project and not his brand / himself.

But let me ask this; if PA ran a drive on their site for this same goal, would anyone object to them asking for donations? Is the problem here the philosophy of Kickstarter not being upheld? Because while I agree about Kickstarter being meant for projects, it also has the mechanics in place for this sort of donation drive.

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I have to admit that I didn't look at the backer rewards and uh... Well, it seems like their ego and self-perception of celebrity has exploded.

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Well, let's not forget that Idle Thumbs was successful enough too.

What is "success"? Idle Thumbs was costing (read: losing) sometimes hundreds of dollars a month in hosting. We asked for enough money to fulfill our rewards, get a small recording space, and host the site and all the podcast bandwidth for two to three years. People responded in a way which totally melted our faces when they overfunded us by like 3-4x, but what we were asking for was "a recording space, because we lost ours, and the ability to cover costs." Penny Arcade clearly already makes about a million dollars a year just from ad sales on their main website (as that's what they're asking for to replace the ads), but they also run two or three other ad-driven spinoff websites, an ad driven video site, a seemingly popular online store, and host two consistent-sell-out gigantic annual national conventions. That's not to say they shouldn't change their business model -- banner ads are shitty, the people who run ad-driven websites hate banner ads and end users hate banner ads -- just...
But let me ask this; if PA ran a drive on their site for this same goal, would anyone object to them asking for donations? Is the problem here the philosophy of Kickstarter not being upheld? Because while I agree about Kickstarter being meant for projects, it also has the mechanics in place for this sort of donation drive.

The sticking points for me are the use of Kickstarter, as it feels not in the spirit of that service (even if its within the letter of the service), and some of the rewards themselves feeling a little self-aggrandizing ("One of us will follow you on Twitter for a year") which left a bad taste in my mouth. Crowdfunding is something I think is totally awesome, giving your supporters/fans/community the ability to directly support you and your work financially is something we need more of. The tone of the campaign, and the use of Kickstarter itself are what irk me.

Again, Penny Arcade switching to a model where their fans pay for their content is something I wholly support. As MrHoatzin said, more things should operate that way! It's not the WHAT, it's the HOW.

Anyway I think I am repeating myself forever now.

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Yeah I hear you Jake. To clarify my 'success' thing though, it doesn't have to strictly be about money; PA is a success financially yeah, and in other ways. Idle Thumbs is a success in other ways too. Whatever loss you guys were incurring to run it (and make no mistake, I appreciate the hell out of that) appeared to have been worth it to you guys and wasn't the reason why the podcast had to stop a couple times.

These rewards are weird as hell for this Penny Arcade thing... The business-lunch one, with Robert Khoo (nice guy) and others, kinda offends me. Mostly in that Khoo has lunch with members of the PA community when he's traveling around the country. He just tells us where he's gonna be and we can show up. Doesn't cost us $5,000.

Ugh. Damn this thread!

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As someone who has been over on the PA forum for almost 10 years (and keeping up with the site since before then), let me say this.

As far as ad-run sites go, PA is unique in that Mike and Jerry have the ability to pick what ads run. That's rare. Not in people wanting to do it, it's rare that it's allowed. But still, they are beholden to ad partners. By making it run through this Kickstarter, they are beholden to the only thing people should ever be accountable to - the viewers / readers.

So, why the high price point? Well, they actually have employees to pay. I think 14 now. PA is more than just a comic site. They're managing and operating a convention and other projects. It's a business. That doesn't mean they're inherently evil (anyone who equates business with being evil is silly). It just means they have shit to pay for. They have people to pay for.

The rewards kind of kick back to jokes they made about Kickstarter long ago, before this year's explosion on it.

I think what they're doing is great, but I don't think Kickstarter is really the place for it. I don't think anyone objects to the notion of people paying to support creative work they like--I sure don't. I wish there was more of that in the world. And I don't think anyone is suggesting that this amount of money won't be used for legitimate purposes. The thing is, they're ALREADY paying all these people, with money they already know how to earn. They are neither kickstarting a new business, nor are they attempting to save a failing one. They are simple changing business models for an already-successful, already-funded business with more than a dozen full-time employees. That to me seems like something they should be doing through infrastructure that they license or build (since they can clearly afford to), rather than through Kickstarter.

Shit, the Idle Thumbs Kickstarter has allowed for the Thumbs crew to bypass being operated on ads as well.

Just as a brief aside, this isn't entirely accurate. Some of our Kickstarter rewards are in fact ads on the podcast. We've never really publicly stated an intention to run no advertising anywhere on Idle Thumbs. We've never had banner ads on the site, and our current plan for the site doesn't include banner ads, but I don't want to give the impression we're hardline about that stuff, because if it ever changes, I don't want people to think we're hypocrites.

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I'm pretty puzzled by this. They're basically offering an ad-free subscription, why use Kickstarter instead of do that?

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I'm pretty puzzled by this. They're basically offering an ad-free subscription, why use Kickstarter instead of do that?

I think the point is, if they do it so they can avoid ads altogether, then they can focus their efforts on other things for their fans. Managing advertisements and such takes a lot of time. Simply adding a subscription option doesn't solve that problem.

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Just as a brief aside, this isn't entirely accurate. Some of our Kickstarter rewards are in fact ads on the podcast. We've never really publicly stated an intention to run no advertising anywhere on Idle Thumbs. We've never had banner ads on the site, and our current plan for the site doesn't include banner ads, but I don't want to give the impression we're hardline about that stuff, because if it ever changes, I don't want people to think we're hypocrites.

Yeah. It was something I noticed about the site and admire (and still do). I forgot about the ads reward thing you guys had, but that seems less oppressive-big-business-like and can end up supporting whoever. I apologize though, I don't want to put words in your guys' mouths.

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I'm pretty puzzled by this. They're basically offering an ad-free subscription, why use Kickstarter instead of do that?

I think practically speaking the all-or-nothing offered by Kickstarter does make sense here. If they let some users subscribe to "no ads," but have other users who don't do that, it will potentially unpredictably fuck with their circulation numbers, which will fuck with their ad rates.

"We have 3,000 visitors to the site" means exactly what that means, until 1,000 of them pay to turn off ads. Then you can't charge advertisers as much for ads, and at some point I'm sure there is a weird diminishing return there. I know Shacknews used to let you subscribe to turn off ads, but I always assumed that was because their ads were fed at a fixed rate through a large ad network or something. Penny Arcade has an internal sales team and they hand pick their ads and their rates based on audience size and stuff. It probably made more sense to them to turn that into a binary decision ("if enough people pay, we turn it all off") instead of managing the dual perpetually-sliding scales of Paid Customers vs Ad Circulation Rates.

With a sliding scale like that it also means their sales team is in a weird place employment wise. If there is a six month period where 2/3 of the readers are paid subscribers, do you take 2/3 of your salesmen off of that and put them on something else for the time being? Maybe that sort of thing is less in flux than that, but I'm sure the binary all/nothing made that sort of thing easier to plan for.

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I think practically speaking the all-or-nothing offered by Kickstarter does make sense here. If they let some users subscribe to "no ads," but have other users who don't do that, it will potentially unpredictably fuck with their circulation numbers, which will fuck with their ad rates.

"We have 3,000 visitors to the site" means exactly what that means, until 1,000 of them pay to turn off ads. Then you can't charge advertisers as much for ads, and at some point I'm sure there is a weird diminishing return there. I know Shacknews used to let you subscribe to turn off ads, but I always assumed that was because their ads were fed at a fixed rate through a large ad network or something. Penny Arcade has an internal sales team and they hand pick their ads and their rates based on audience size and stuff. It probably made more sense to them to turn that into a binary decision ("if enough people pay, we turn it all off") instead of managing the dual perpetually-sliding scales of Paid Customers vs Ad Circulation Rates.

With a sliding scale like that it also means their sales team is in a weird place employment wise. If there is a six month period where 2/3 of the readers are paid subscribers, do you take 2/3 of your salesmen off of that and put them on something else for the time being? Maybe that sort of thing is less in flux than that, but I'm sure the binary all/nothing made that sort of thing easier to plan for.

Although they are creating some of that weirdness for themselves by offering the possibility of only half of the ads going away, or whatever. However it works out though it'll be for the entire year so it's at least predictable once the KS is over.

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Yeah. It was something I noticed about the site and admire (and still do). I forgot about the ads reward thing you guys had, but that seems less oppressive-big-business-like and can end up supporting whoever. I apologize though, I don't want to put words in your guys' mouths.

You also forgot the part where you the Thumbs will take you out for dinner at a certain tier, which doesn't seem that different from having lunch with Koo or even a tweet.

I have no stance the PA thing, so I am not making any statement, it's just strange to see.

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