Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ben X

Homophobic?

Recommended Posts

There's using words to hurt someone and then there's being prudish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could decide that we are, for the most part, adults or at least young adults, and that we as a world society need to hike up our diapers and stop taking everything everyone ever says so personally. If something offends you, stop for a minute, ask, "what about ME does this attack," and, "is outrage a worthy response to something an anonymous person posted on the internet."

But the flipside is that you don't want to be, as a responsible adult, part of the slew of mindless and casual bigotry that is so common on the internet. Blaming the people you've offended is just a way of trying to diminish your own, very real, culpability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are words not the very tool for inflicting 'psychological violence'?

I'm surprised when people underestimate the power of words. Sticks and stones is the biggest load of crock. War propaganda, incitement towards nationalism and terrorism, religion; all mere words.

Words are a great way to influence people who are not critical thinkers, which, shamefully is most people. And I don't think words are necessarily essential to psychological violence, although my point was that words themselves are not dangerous. Language itself isn't enough, I don't think, to inflict harm. The thoughts and intent behind the words are the most important thing. Its why forum bullying is such a low form of bullying. It takes the full participation of the victim to make it work at all. The same thing goes for FUCK and SHIT and CUNT. You have to participate for them to be offensive.

That being said, the line can be blurred when it comes to bigotry versus just bad language, since the words used by bigots and bullies already have the meanness and anger attached to them. Saying, "Why can't I use the N word? Black people do!?" Implies that white people hadn't already turned the word into a violent and disgusting term of degradation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That being said, the line can be blurred when it comes to bigotry versus just bad language, since the words used by bigots and bullies already have the meanness and anger attached to them. Saying, "Why can't I use the N word? Black people do!?" Implies that white people hadn't already turned the word into a violent and disgusting term of degradation.

Perhaps the point is that casual statements that have an implicit negative tone regarding a minority group are lay the groundwork for pernicious social prejudices: by equating something associated with a particular minority with something bad, we are contributing to a pervasive message that this group has an undesirable outsider status.

I'm still not entirely decided on much of this stuff, but it certainly seems more complex and subtle than people taking simple offence at individual statements. None of these things exist in a vacuum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, I really disagree with that guy. What is "only a word" to you can be a bringer of fear and terrible memories/associations to someone else who is actually affected by the discrimination that word represents. Choosing to do an action like suck a black cock is really not the same as being discriminated against through no fault of your own.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That guy is a hero. This probably comes as no surprise to the legions of enemies I made in the feminism thread. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That guy is an ignoramus with a choir, and every fatuous point he makes hinders social progress. Maybe Mr. Straight, White, and Wealthy has never felt the sting of true hatred, but for every person who winces when he spouts "faggot", I hope he does.

What could the problem with words be?

NIZcQ.png

VR9iH.jpg

nVfGu.jpg

np6Kl.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do racist posters from 70 years ago make you really offended by someone being racist in their speech today? It's like secondhand outrage, you're offended because you're told you should be offended. A word is really just a word. Sure they have meaning attached to them, and sure some of those meanings have deeper history than others, but I think you have to have a thicker skin about these things. Maybe it's just having grown up on the internet and shitty message boards, but I don't really get offended by words.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, linking propaganda posters from decades ago does not support your argument.

(That is not to say racism and intolerance is not a thing today, but you are looking too far and wide for support of your argument. Even the stupidest politicians don't go "Rome fell because of market depreciation!")

Frankly, considering the Deficit Manatee and the Debt Dragon, some politician probably has compared us to Rome, but my point stands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I chose those images without thought for their historical context because the point I'm making has little to do with history (although it is obviously steeped in it). The point is that the meaning of words does not lie only in the eyes their beholders.

Humans are not perfectly rational - despite ourselves, we tend to become invested in what others think of us, knowing, even, how little weight ought to be placed in it if we are at peace with who we are. For that reason, it is not sensible to ask the gay man to grow a thicker skin about people calling him a faggot because "faggot", to him, has come to represent all the contempt the world feels for who he is. He may know quite well there's little "faggot" suggests about his true nature (or, perhaps, as might be likelier, does not know), but it hardly stops the word from hammering home, perhaps again, just how alien and how dirty he is to others. Yes, although he understands homosexuality is not a flaw, the hate still bears down on him: "I am unwanted. I am society's detritus." Would you fault him for feeling that way?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doug Stanhope is a hit and miss comedian. I laughed at the imagine of the picture he described, but his thinking about words and meaning is shallow. Being offended is not something taught by your parents in an attempt to make you 'weaker' (what a strange thought that is! It implies a world of weird notions, for instance that it is weak to be sensitive to other people, that it is weak to have access to the full spectrum of emotions). Offense is pounded in you as trauma, sometimes, other times it is righteous indignation because you have learned just how vile something is.

The correct response to harrassment and bullying isn't telling the victim to grow thicker skin and take it, it's to educate bullies why their behavior is heinous and wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In an abstract world of platonic ideals, I agree: No words should be off limits. In the context of our histories and societies though, it's not something I could ever advocate.

As with the example I gave in the feminism thread of saying cunt in front of a former prostitute, the correct response would not have been for me to tell her to grow thicker skin. If you actually think it would have been, I suggest you go sell your mouth and asshole to some mean spirited men for a few years, then see how you feel about it.

In a world with trauma and prejudice, certain words are always going to require the right context to be inoffensive. Dealing with this kind of stuff as if it's absolute, and other people can just suck it regardless of context, is insensitive and makes you a prick. That is often the problem, not sensitivity in others.

Here's an idea: The sensitivity people are entitled to has an inverse proportion to the privilege they have. In the words of Louis C.K., "I'm a white guy. You can't even hurt my feelings". Becoming conscious of how privileged I am by default has made me a lot tougher and less worried about things*. Nearly 100% of the time, I am absolutely not entitled to feel like a victim of anything, particularly with interpersonal stuff. Other people's lives are not the same. If I were to genuinely think that, without regard to context, I should be able to use insults based in racism, homophobia, sexual violence or gender, that would make me scum, not a hero.

* Conversely, when I look at MRA type stuff, I see a lot of bleating, weak little shits with nothing to actually complain about.

This probably comes as no surprise to the legions of enemies I made in the feminism thread. :D

"Enemies" is a very dramatic term. It's a disagreement on a forum and none of us should sweat it too much. Quit being so sensitive :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"Enemies" is a very dramatic term. It's a disagreement on a forum and none of us should sweat it too much. Quit being so sensitive :P

Yes. It was a joke. NOW WHO'S BEING SENSITIVE?!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By the way, when I said "with a choir", I wasn't talking about Twig and Orvidos. I actually had Stanhope's live audience in mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Words that attach negative connotation to anything else tend to be detrimental to that other thing in very real ways. 'words are just words' as an argument has always seemed uninformed to me, it's clear when you look at history that bad things happening to people and bad words correlate strongly. The first thing we learn in statistics is correlation does not equal causation, but it's clearly related.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By the way, when I said "with a choir", I wasn't talking about Twig and Orvidos. I actually had Stanhope's live audience in mind.

Oh gods no, I don't agree with that particular piece, maybe he does have some good stuff but I couldn't say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cracker :P

Well, that's racist. Just because I'm white doesn't mean you gotta hate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People saying "Well I don't get offended by words!" seems pretty much meaningless to me. If you don't belong to a group that has been traditionally--or is still--venemously targeted with those words, then yes of course it's pretty easy for you personally not to get offended by them. One of the most important parts of living in a modern complex multicultural society is the ability to have empathy for other groups and people who aren't you and aren't like you, who may not have the luxury to be able to easily cast aside instinctual reactions to hurtful speech.

I mean even aside from getting into the real nuances of any of this stuff, saying "Well it's fine for me so I don't see why it should bother anyone else" just comes off as an incredibly shaky platform on which to build ANY opinion, whether it's related to language or anything else in the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:tup: * million.

There are comparatively few amplifiers for our empathy, compared to multipliers for human agency. That always worries me.

(Soz Twig. You can call me a honky if it makes you feel good).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's ridiculous to imply that people who feel "words is words" lack empathy. I'll never run around shouting slurs, no matter how much I feel it might serve comedic purpose (which is my primary purpose). That doesn't mean I think people should let words hurt them.

Words only have power if you let them have power. Unlike physical abuse, this is something YOU have control over. If someone punches you in the face, you can't just ignore it. If someone calls you a WHATEVER, it is in your power to mentally fuck them right off. It's a huge hurdle to jump. I know from experience - despite being the "safe" race and sexuality, I was still a target for a very long time. Nonetheless, it is a jumpable hurdle. If we, as a whole, decided to stop acknowledging the negativity associated with certain words, those words would no longer have power. But, yes, I know it's an impossible dream and will never actually happen. Doesn't mean I can't wish it would.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It blows my mind that after all that was said, you still insist on equating being bullied for being a white dude for being bullied for not being a white dude.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't mean to imply that 'words is words' denotes a lack of empathy, but I really do believe it comes from a position of ignorance. To be completely blunt, it's what happens when someone who's never been in a position of serious emotional trauma doesn't have the experience to compare it to serious physical trauma. To say the former is less significant than the latter seems ridiculous to me, when time and again it's been shown that emotional damage often has deeper effects than physical damage.

As a disclaimer I come from a position of never having a broken bone or endured other serious physical trauma, but having come from a background that included a lot of emotional stress, both from growing up in detroit and with a very affected bipolar mother. Maybe I'm coming at it with opposite biases.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It blows my mind that after all that was said, you still insist on equating being bullied for being a white dude for being bullied for not being a white dude.

Okay. I'm sorry, but bullying is bullying. There are different degrees of bullying, for sure, and different contexts. It's still an emotionally taxing experience, no matter what the reasons.

To say the former is less significant than the latter seems ridiculous to me, when time and again it's been shown that emotional damage often has deeper effects than physical damage.

I really wish I was typing what you people are reading. Then I might be able to understand what you're actually arguing with. I never said it's less significant. I said it's different. Emotional hurdles are something you overcome through sheer force of will. You have to dig deep and find the strength to do so, sure. But everyone CAN do it. Not everyone can literally jump a hurdle. At least, not without at least being in good enough shape to do so.

EDIT: Sorry if that sounded confrontational. It looks a little so, re-reading it. I am easily frustrated when my words apparently imply things I never meant to imply. That, and I've already been down this road once in the feminism thread and got enough people jumping down my throat there. I think I'll step out of this thread, too. Wokka wokka!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×