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Ben X

Homophobic?

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I was just about to post this tweet

Seems I can't convert my laptop VGA to my telly because of HDCP copy protection bullshit. STOP FUCKING ME IN THE ARSE. ELECTRONICS INDUSTRY.

when I realised that it may well be seen as homophobic. It didn't strike me at first because this is one of those phrases that, to me at least, has been stripped of its original context to a large extent. That is, when I say or type it, I don't associate it in my head with the literal meaning at all. Perhaps the Feminism thread has made me more sensitive to this kind of thing, though, because I stopped to wonder. I hypothesised what my responses would be to any accusations of homophobia that followed, to determine whether I felt justified in using the phrase.

The obvious response is that anal sex is not homosexual-exclusive. So, why am I using it as a negative phrase? Personally, I'm pretty terrified of getting fucked in the arse by a man or a woman (although listening to Dan Savage's podcast has tempted me to experiment with butt-plugs, but my hemorrhoidophobia is pretty strong), although I suppose the term is used in general with man-on-man connotations.

I momentarily decided that if I'm not using it in a homophobic way, then it's acceptable, at least to me. But then, I'd rather err on the side of not upsetting anyone, and I could conceivably imagine some of my LGBT friends not liking my use of the term, plus I can't pretend to be so naive as to not recognise that it probably is used in a homophobic manner by a lot of people. So I tried to come up with a (funny) alternative. The trouble is, anything I came up with could potentially have me attacked for being derogatory about someone's kink: STOP PISSING ON MY SHOES? STOP KICKING ME IN THE NUTS? These could be offensive to water-sport or ball-busting fetishists. Should I be more sensitive to homophobia because it's more prevalent and violent? STOP FUCKING ME OVER might work but it's less funny and if I'm going down the road of literalism I should consider the connotations of rape.

Should I try to find something utterly non-sexual (difficult what with there being a fetish for everything), or say what I want as long as I am comfortable with my intent?

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Make it a weirdly specific and wildly deviant behavior! Like you said, anal sex isn't a strictly homosexual thing, nor do all homosexuals engage in it(if i remember right it's actually a relatively low percentage). Doesn't seem that offensive to me, but different things offend different people. You'll never please everyone.

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If you find something non-sexual, it'll almost certainly be either racist or trivializing violence. Go with "Stop being mean to me!".

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Erm.

I don't think that being "offensive to water-sport or ball-busting fetishists" is equivalent to being offensive to people who like/indulge in anal sex. That's a little slippery-slope-esque reasoning, there.

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Oooh, "slippery slope!" I can't believe you went there. So insensitive.

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Erm.

I don't think that being "offensive to water-sport or ball-busting fetishists" is equivalent to being offensive to people who like/indulge in anal sex. That's a little slippery-slope-esque reasoning, there.

Erm.

I didn't say it was. I'm just asking questions here, and in fact in my very next question after that sentence I say that homophobia is more prevalent and violent. Do please try to read posts properly, Subbes, this isn't the Feminism thread, you know.

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Vaguely relatedly! My undergrad thesis, back in '05, was about male-receptive anal intercourse in m/f relationships - i.e. pegging - and the "queering" of heterosexual sex. Lots of Foucault.

I still bear a grudge against Dan Savage because I tried to contact him for research/background info and he never replied - not even the courtesy of providing a "sorry, no" reply.

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Do please try to read posts properly, Subbes, this isn't the Feminism thread, you know.

Ouch. BURNSAUCE.

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Vaguely relatedly! My undergrad thesis, back in '05, was about male-receptive anal intercourse in m/f relationships - i.e. pegging - and the "queering" of heterosexual sex. Lots of Foucault.

I still bear a grudge against Dan Savage because I tried to contact him for research/background info and he never replied - not even the courtesy of providing a "sorry, no" reply.

I used the term pegging in my original post before editing!

That's a shame about Savage. Maybe it got spammed or something? You should have written an amazing letter to his column and then put your request in a PS.

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I don't think that "STOP FUCKING ME IN THE ARSE. ELECTRONICS INDUSTRY." alludes to homosexual behavior; it just references the fact that getting unwillingly buggered by something as large as the electronics industry would definitely prove to be a painful experience. Which in the spurt of the moment might have appeared akin to the suffering of being denied VGA output to your TV. 'just sayin'.

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STOP PISSING ON MY SHOES? STOP KICKING ME IN THE NUTS? These could be offensive to water-sport or ball-busting fetishists.

Also, I'm trying to quit using the term "painful" to describe situations I would prefer not to experience, because of the risk of offending SM practitioners by implying that pain is undesirable.

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I should clarify: I am aware that would be an extreme stance to take. I haven't taken a position, I'm just musing on where the line should be drawn.

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I'm also trying to stop saying "like" in every sentence, because it's demeaning to stereotypical valley girls. It's so hard being PC ^_^

@ OP, I really wouldn't worry about things like that. If someone's going to get offended by a tweet like that then it's not your problem. I did have a dumb friend when I was a teenager who called everything he didn't like gay. "That's so gay". Which I guess he wasn't using it in the sense of saying gay people are bad, but it was a stupid turn of phrase. I had to stop myself a few times after I realised i'd picked up that habit.

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in the spurt of the moment

Was this Freudian?

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What the casual use "stop fucking me in the arse" and, more generally, "rape" does unambiguously is contribute positively (or negatively depending on definitions) to rape culture - this sort of language en masse creates an environment in which, essentially, the perception of rape's cruelty is wrongfully diminished.

I think a good rule for having an opinion is to avoid language that hurts socially disadvantaged people. Water-sport fetishists are not socially disadvantaged people; homosexuality is not a fetish. In fact, the breed of equivocation that places the shaming of homosexuals and the shaming water-sport fetishists in the same category is straw-man nonsense. Water-sport fetishists aren't beaten to death for their fondness for urine.

maybe this is all parody what's happening

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Was this Freudian?

Isn't it always?

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I think a good rule for having an opinion is to avoid language that hurts socially disadvantaged people. Water-sport fetishists are not socially disadvantaged people; homosexuality is not a fetish.

I think this deserves a :tup:

So, yes. I think the original quote would have been a bit homophobic. A bit. As in, it's a bit insensitive. It's the type of joke that only straight guys would make to other straight guys.

Better to just say, "WHY MUST YOU KEEP PISSING AND SHITTING ON ME, ELECTRONICS INDUSTRY?!?".

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What the casual use "stop fucking me in the arse" and, more generally, "rape" does unambiguously is contribute positively (or negatively depending on definitions) to rape culture - this sort of language en masse creates an environment in which, essentially, the perception of rape's cruelty is wrongfully diminished.

I think a good rule for having an opinion is to avoid language that hurts socially disadvantaged people. Water-sport fetishists are not socially disadvantaged people; homosexuality is not a fetish. In fact, the breed of equivocation that places the shaming of homosexuals and the shaming water-sport fetishists in the same category is straw-man nonsense. Water-sport fetishists aren't beaten to death for their fondness for urine.

maybe this is all parody what's happening

No, not parody, I just found it an interesting mental process to be going through.

This is a good answer, by the way - I didn't get round to going back and applying the rape culture concerns to the original tweet in my post. Although I think you've used straw-man incorrectly...

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It always seemed to me that the expression had more of a prison rape context than a homosexual one. There is way more to gay men's love lives than anal sex, but heterosexual people tend to fixate on it as "Oh right. That's the way they do sex".

Nonetheless, as an expression it connects horrifically to bullshit ideas that anti-gay people have of "there's no love in what they do" etc., so :tup: to Wubbles.

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You could decide that we are, for the most part, adults or at least young adults, and that we as a world society need to hike up our diapers and stop taking everything everyone ever says so personally. If something offends you, stop for a minute, ask, "what about ME does this attack," and, "is outrage a worthy response to something an anonymous person posted on the internet."

Being offended says more about yourself than it does what offended you, and that goes the other way as well. Finding homophobia or racism in everything is a subtle indicator that you are not as far removed from homphobia or racism as you would like yourself to be. Deciding, "No, I did not mean that to be demeaning to anyone, but just am using it as an expression of frustration," is a good start. Also, Saying FUCK offends people, because apparently words are more dangerous than physical or psychological violence.

Intelligent people tend to be too sensitive, in my opinion. Seek out things that offend you once in a while, then question why they do and if there is a good reason for it.

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Finding homophobia or racism in everything is a subtle indicator that you are not as far removed from homphobia or racism as you would like yourself to be.

Yeah, one could be really close to homophobia or racism by virtue of being a victim of one or both of them, which is the case for most of homosexual and non-white people.

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Also, Saying FUCK offends people, because apparently words are more dangerous than physical or psychological violence.

Are words not the very tool for inflicting 'psychological violence'?

I'm surprised when people underestimate the power of words. Sticks and stones is the biggest load of crock. War propaganda, incitement towards nationalism and terrorism, religion; all mere words.

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