Episode 174: For I Have Sinned

[Rob Zacny]

Ironclad’s Blair Fraser and Stardock’s Chris Bray join Rob, Julian, and freelance writer

Kat Bailey to discuss the new Rebellion stand-alone expansion to Sins of a Solar Empire. Kat wants to know what the hell to do about Advent culture. Rob wants to know why Rebellion looks so good. Blair wants everyone to know that the story of SoaSE guides its ongoing direction. Then Blair and Chris tease us with the greatest idea in the history of gaming.

Listen: Billy Pilgrim has built a Titan.

[jmh42]

Great show, Sins is a game with which I've always had a very mixed relationship. When it was initially released it really disappointed me, in that I didn't feel it lived up to its "4X" billing at all. I recently picked up Trinity after a hiatus of several years and was struck that it really does seem to be moving in a good direction. The diplomacy, the addition of another victory condition, the emplacements, all of these seem to push it away from the more typical RTS play and towards something 4Xier (rhymes with sexier ).

Rebellion looks like it pushes things even further in that direction, and that's great news. Even more victory conditions, even more options, even more factions, that's very much what I want. Having listened to the show I do have a couple of remaining concerns/questions:

1) The difference between factions in Trinity is significant, but subtle. On the surface, they look pretty symmetric (you can pretty much match 1 to 1 every TEC ship with an equivalent Vasari ship, for example). The differences are in the bonuses and the tech trees, and they end up being substantial, but with that being as subtle as it is I have to wonder what the differences between the loyalist/rebel factions in Rebellion really amount to. Do they have different ships? Different bonuses? Different tech trees? This wasn't really broken down clearly in the episode.

2) The titan balance stuff worries me, a lot. I remember the Age of Mythology expansion bringing in "titans," and how every match devolved into a race to the titan rather than having any other substance. This seems particularly lethal to Sins' new direction, where there's been this push towards more options, more strategies, and more win conditions to really fulfill that 4X promise. If the game just turns into a titan race for everyone, that seems a lot less interesting. "I win" buttons are fun once in awhile, but they get old fast. It sounded like the devs weren't all that concerned about this, but it's an absolute dealbreaker from my perspective. If anyone can comment beyond what's in the episode, I'd appreciate it.

3) How does the AI handle all of this new stuff? It was pretty weak in the original Sins (at least early on), and seems to be somewhat stronger in Trinity (though it still doesn't seem understand some things, like how to use the Vasari super weapon). Does Rebellion improve it further, or do all the new additions gum it up?

Thanks to anyone that can provide some illumination on these points. This is probably enough of a wall of text already, so I'll just say that this kind of analysis is exactly why I listen to 3MA. Keep up the good work, guys!

[Outlandish]

Fine, you guys cost me another $30. At least I got the $10 discount for previous Sins purchase. I never did play Trinity even though I bought it; probably got distracted by Civ as usual and then it was on Impulse so I forgot about it. Barely keeping up with the normal AIs at the moment and even the pirates are causing problems but I'll get it figured out again eventually.

[Rob Zacny]

I don't think the Titans act as an "I win" button. You pretty much have to build one at some point, but there is a lot of latitude about when and how you bring it out. The Titan has four research stages, at which point you can complete the damn thing. So you are talking about a Tier 4 Military technology, then an expenditure of several thousand credits and resources. Plus whatever supply and training technologies you need to make room for the damn thing. That's a lot of research time and money that goes into bringing out your Titan, and someone else could be improving their regular fleet and economy for the same money. If they use that time well, they could negate any advantage you get by deploying a Titan early.

As for faction differences, they have different Titan and tweaked tech trees. Each faction has a half dozen technologies specific to itself. So TEC Loyalist has technologies that confer bonuses for a defensive game style, plus I think some improved diplomacy, while the Rebels get technologies that encourage raiding and using pirates.

AI is tough to judge. I play against Hard AI and I usually end up narrowly losing. I've seen it do clever stuff and nothing really terrible. They employ different strategies. They use super weapons effectively. They seem a little passive diplomatically, but just a bit. I was super impressed when it deployed a bunch of level 1 support capital ships behind two higher-level battleships to basically run a Medic-Marine strategy against me. I'd never seen that before, but it won a major battle as the AI healed more damage than my fleet could inflict. Good stuff.

[Codicier]

I'm find myself in a similar position to jhm42, caught unsure over whether or not to take the plunge for Rebellion. I've always loved the Sin's series, but now i find myself hesitating for the 1st time.

The decision just seems much murkier than it used to be, there are so many good games out there now, many of which are often heavily discounted, and even old games have become a lot easier to get hold of. I don't even think its the bottom line costs,'ve been buying more and more board games recently and they certainly aren't cheap. It may even be as that EA executive a while back suggested, and that iOS and Steam sales have actually changed my perception of value for video games.

This isn't a reflection on what the developers have accomplished in any way, it more that something has fundamentally changed in my buying habits. If I'm honest i had put it on the back burner and wasn't even seriously considering it until i heard this podcast.

[jmh42]

Thanks for the answers, Rob. I'm still a little troubled by the idea of having to build a titan to be competitive, though it may just be that having seen this kind of thing done poorly I'm being overly cautious in a case where it's done well. It does make it seem like the alternate victory conditions are less independent paths to victory and more military stalemate breakers, though. Is that a fair assessment?

I appreciate the clarification on the factions. That actually sounds pretty good. Am I correct in having gotten the sense from the show that the races themselves are somewhat more differentiated than they were in Trinity?

I'm glad to hear the AI is capable of surprising you, and using at least some of the advanced features well. If you can't tell it sucks, that probably means it's good enough.

Again, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I'm thinking this is probably a buy, based on the show, overall word of mouth, and the details you've filled in.

@ Codicier

I really believe that a game worth playing is a game worth paying real money to play. I also really believe that if we're intent on paying $5 for games, we'll rapidly reach a point where the only games out there are the ones worth $5. I'm more than happy to pay $40 for a great strategy game, I'm just not sure whether Rebellion is a great strategy game just yet. It's looking good, though!

[Codicier]

@jmh42 I should clarify a little. My dilemma comes from the fact I have already played the Sins franchise a fair amount (between the different iterations I've put in easily 100+ hours played time), this may be the best expansion ever, improving the game in every way, making the game richer, smoother & prettier. But... its still Sins, I feel it is still going to be the same core experience but refined, and I wonder if I'm missing out on some totally new experience by sticking with it. It's not that I don't feel sins isn't worth its price, in fact if a friend who'd never played the series asked me if they if they should try this release it I'd answer with a unreserved yes.

Its just In the past going for a new release from a great company who'd produced games I loved was a easy choice, the risk of taking a chance on a new release from a company I didn't know about felt so much higher in part because games stayed full price so much longer. But now look at games like Warlock, it went from release to a 50% sale in just over a month! It doesn't feel a risk at that price.

It's like choosing between ordering your favourite flavour ice cream with a new special sauce, or trying a new flavour which sounds good for half the price. I'd love to do both, but that's not a option for me time wise or cash wise for em at the moment.

In the end though choosing between a old favourite and the new and unknown is a great problem for consumers to have.

[Lumpen]

I'll repost my questions from the 3MA site episodes comments:

I have a question about these expansions. Rebellion is a stand-alone? Is there any reason to buy the old Trinity and Rebellion? Are all the cool features from the old expansions included in Rebellion? Like warlords and beyond the sword fro Civ 4? Would I be missing anything by just buying Rebellion?

[jmh42]

Rebellion completely replaces Trinity, and incorporates all of its content.

[riadsala]

Just finished my first Sins:Reb game. 8 factions, over 3 systems.

And, sadly, the TEC Rebel Titan basically acted as the "I win" button. Sure, I had a lot of fun with it... but it seems FAR FAR too easy to build. There were 4 factions in my star system with around 5 planets each. I took out my neighbour easily enough, and one of the nearby enemy AIso also conquered his neighbour.

My titan came online just as my remaining opponent in the star system launched an attack. As my empire was still fairly small, it was only 3 phase jumps to reach the front line, and the level 1 titan flew in an obliterated the enemies attack fleet. I can't remember exactly how many ships, but there were enough to level my titan up to level 5 in a matter of minutes.

From then on, it was pretty much unstoppable. Starbases just crumple. I'm guessing that the only counter to a titan is another titan.

Which, while "fun" and "cool", etc, it does seem to be a bit strategically lacking.

Methinks Sins + Entrenchment + Diplomacy was maybe more of a balanced game.

[Which isn't to say I didn't enjoy the game, and will be playing again, up a difficulty level, soon]

[Lumpen]

Did they give out the Sins keys yet? 25% off on the steam summer sale right now. I think I want to pounce, but I have no friends willing to take the leap with me. We're all enjoying Civ 5 at the moment.

[Sorbicol]

No Troy said he was going to give it a few more days in the Pokemon podcast.

[Gormongous]

Did they give out the Sins keys yet? 25% off on the steam summer sale right now. I think I want to pounce, but I have no friends willing to take the leap with me. We're all enjoying Civ 5 at the moment.

Hah, my thoughts exactly. I'd bite, but I'll feel stupid if I win the key in a couple days.

[Codicier]

the TEC Rebel Titan basically acted as the "I win" button.

From what I understood from the podcast I 'think' that you are basically supposed to be very hard to stop once they are in the field, but are a big resource drain which a player could use as a window opportunity to mount a offensive.

In some ways the way people talk about it they sound like true doomsday weapons, and the way their development works in particular sounds like it can easily end up resembling a nuclear weapon race in some ways.

[riadsala]

From what I understood from the podcast I 'think' that you are basically supposed to be very hard to stop once they are in the field, but are a big resource drain which a player could use as a window opportunity to mount a offensive.

In some ways the way people talk about it they sound like true doomsday weapons, and the way their development works in particular sounds like it can easily end up resembling a nuclear weapon race in some ways.

Yes, I know, but there are a couple of issues. Maybe one of them is that I was only playing on "normal" difficulty. But ignoring that point:

I think they're way too cheap. They're only a couple of levels higher than starbases on the tech tree. I can imagine in most games, titans will be out before players have unlocked all the starbase upgrades.

- The fact that the titans are SO big and powerful unbalances the game. Not as in, one faction is more powerful than the others. but that the best strategy now appears to "get a titan," at the expense of anything else really. It's interesting to compare them to the Starbases, which where the big shiny toy in previous versions on the game. Starbases, while fun, where also of limited use and very expensive. I always built them, as I thought they were cool. But there was a good argument that the money spent on researching, building, and upgrading starbases would be better spent on expanding and improving your fleet. After all, if the game is going well, your starbases aren't even going to be seeing much action as you'll be taking the fight to the enemy. Plus, starbases had some simple counters (long range ships, protected by flak, or simply avoid them).

The only answer to a titan though, appears to be another titan. Which just reduces the range of effective game plans and strategies. And, on a harsh reading, just turns the game into a LoL type thing where you worry about controlling and levelling up one ship.

Which isn't to say I didn't enjoy the game! and I admit, these are only my initial reactions. I will try playing another game and see how I get on.

[Lumpen]

Anyone know if 3MA has gone into any detail on Gal Civ 2?

I want to know if I should go for the steam deal and whether galciv is something easy to learn and fun for coop MP (new being my g/f who tolerates Civ5 and Minecraft). I like what I hear from Rob about Sins for coop comp-stomps, but the learning curve will turn off my friends, is gal civ any better (cause it certainly is cheaper)?

[Codicier]

Anyone know if 3MA has gone into any detail on Gal Civ 2?

I want to know if I should go for the steam deal and whether galciv is something easy to learn and fun for coop MP (new being my g/f who tolerates Civ5 and Minecraft). I like what I hear from Rob about Sins for coop comp-stomps, but the learning curve will turn off my friends, is gal civ any better (cause it certainly is cheaper)?

I don't think there's a specific episode dedicated to it and though I certainly can't speak for the 3MA guys, but if you want to see the sort of stories what Gal Civ2 is capable of producing its hard to go wrong with reading Tom Francis's Plan B series (parts 1 & 2).

Also as far as I'm aware Gal Civ 2 is single player (at least I've never played it any other way), however I don't think you will go wrong with Sin's for co-op (though as you say its more expensive).

You also might want to consider the Dawn of War 2 games for your stratergy Co-op needs (if you haven't already got them), they have co-op campaign modes & a co-op multi-player mode. I'd recommend this pack, which essentially contains 3 whole campaigns for you and you GF to play through and is pretty cheap for a few more hours(if you really want to save as much cash as possible just get 2x copies of the latest standalone Retribution, which has several different races to play through).

Hope some of that info's of some use to you, I realise DoW2 isn't quite the majestic 4x strat you might be looking for but it does co-op well enough to be worth a quick look at.

[riadsala]

Anyone know if 3MA has gone into any detail on Gal Civ 2?

I want to know if I should go for the steam deal and whether galciv is something easy to learn and fun for coop MP (new being my g/f who tolerates Civ5 and Minecraft). I like what I hear from Rob about Sins for coop comp-stomps, but the learning curve will turn off my friends, is gal civ any better (cause it certainly is cheaper)?

I think the learning curve in GalCiv2 is a lot steeper than in Sins.

...

I said I'd report back after completing another game. And I have! This time on Hard, on the doppelgänger map, playing as advant loyalists. Now, either one of three things are happenings:

• the AI is is a lot worse in Rebellion than in previous versions of the game
  
• I am a lot better at Sins than I used to be
  
• I'm confused and have got "hard" and "unfair" mixed up.
  

Either way, three hard AIs offered next to no resistance. And unlocking the titan early didn't seem to do me any hard.... It was the 3rd capital ship in my fleet! And I only got round to building some starbases while waiting for titan to be constructed.

That said, the Advant ship is a lot weaker than the TEC (in terms of direct firepower). Near the end of the game, I effectively have 3 of the 4 systems, while the last AI was barricaded in the 4th behind a maxed out starbase and a load of level 5 cap sips (I guess it was putting its huge credit income bonuses to good use). So, I parked my fleet in orbit around their sun, built two starbases, and built the culture spreading upgrades on them. Then went for a science victory.

I still feel that titans should be higher in the tech trees. It seems odd that it is easier to unlock than some of the cruisers.

Think I'll give the game a little break and hopefully a patch will tweak things a little more to my liking.

Which again, isn't to say I don't like the game... 15 hours played in under two weeks is a lot by my standards. But I do have a good few other games on my "to play" list.