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toblix

Microsoft Surface

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If you want to experience the interface of the surface you can always install the windows 8 consumer preview. That one comes with the metro interface used in the tablets.

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Isn't the tilt and pressure on Wacoms governed by the pen? It certainly was on the last one I owned years ago. I see no reason why a pen for this — or any tablet really — couldn't be developed that works with software to communicate what the current tilt/pressure is. There's definitely a market here waiting to be tapped (ho ho).

Yep, it's governed by the pen. I don't know why other companies can't just make a cheaper version of what Wacom's pens do. It might have something to do with their patent, but I wouldn't know the details. The problem is, no tablet PC or Wacom-like drawing tablet ever does all of the same. At this point I rely greatly on a combination of pressure sensitivity, tilt, customizable buttons, and pressure degrees and resolution, so anything much less and I'd feel gimped. There's a few tablet PCs already with pressure sensitivity which Wacom sells technology to, but they are usually missing the tilt part on the pen.. If the pen doesn't have a battery, chances are it's Wacom technology.

But this is not to saw Wacom is grand, they make good products which are fucking expensive. I can probably not afford a Cintiq for a long while assuming money goes good in life. The cheapest one is still $1,000 and the screen is way too small for my liking. I imagine if someone could just put out something similar for cheap, it would change the game.

But the thing is most consumers are not interested in tablets for art reasons and you wouldn't really need all of the functions unless you are doing some serious digital painting, which makes the demand for nicer priced tablets to not have all bells and whistles. At least that's how it see it.

The link BigJKO and Chris posted for the Blue Tiger doesn't seem like it'll still have all the same functions, nor does it seem to be ideal for drawing and painting. I'd be curious if they could get drivers for it in Corel and Adobe programs.

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I think they have an open API allowing anyone to integrate the pen into their app. How does it not seem ideal for drawing and painting? That was exactly what I'd imagined myself doing with it.. :o

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Having owned two Zunes (don't ask), it really wasn't any better. The squircle is a great hardware interface, but it was so cheap that I kept getting false positive inputs. That really ruined the rest of the well thought software UI for me. The rest of the device was pretty crappy as well.

The Zune HD is really nice, but the iPod touch came at around the same, so it was too little, too late.

I had (and still have) a first gen Zune. Still works perfectly, and I never had any "false positive" inputs. My brand new iPhone 4S occassionally fucks up when it's playing something that's been paused a few times, something my first gen Zune has never done. The first Zune shat all over the iPod that was available at the time -- and no journalists actually were impartial enough to notice. You're right that Apple were quick to catch up, though.

That said, the Zune Software still shits all over iTunes. God damn, I've never used a more frustrating and badly designed piece of software... and fan lunatics still argue with me that it's "perfect".

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That said, the Zune Software still shits all over iTunes. God damn, I've never used a more frustrating and badly designed piece of software... and fan lunatics still argue with me that it's "perfect".

As a piece of music management software, itunes is pretty crap (maybe it is better on OSX, but I'm on windows), but I was pretty impressed with it when recently I had to replace my iphone. Plugging the new phone in and synching to restore everything I had on my old phone "just worked."

I've never had an android phone so maybe this is par for the course and I'm just easily impressed.

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I had (and still have) a first gen Zune. Still works perfectly, and I never had any "false positive" inputs.

Ah right, the Zune30 didn't have the touch sensitive pad.

My brand new iPhone 4S occassionally fucks up when it's playing something that's been paused a few times, something my first gen Zune has never done.

I've noticed this too, makes me sad. Basically, smartphones do a million things at once now, so this shit happens (occasionally for me). Never happened on my older iPods.

That said, the Zune Software still shits all over iTunes. God damn, I've never used a more frustrating and badly designed piece of software... and fan lunatics still argue with me that it's "perfect".

Agreed. Although the Zune software never installed on my laptop, so I never spent much time with it. But yeah, iTunes is awful, even on OSX.

The first Zune shat all over the iPod that was available at the time -- and no journalists actually were impartial enough to notice. You're right that Apple were quick to catch up, though.

And here's where I need to disagree. Honestly, I hate doing this, but I get so frustrated at the "lol apple bias" and/or "apple makes shitty products that they market really well" stance. (not saying you did the latter) Straight up, Apple is successful because they make good products.

So I check the wiki. Zune30 came out in Nov 2006. At that time, the iPod Classic (5th gen) was the same price, many times smaller, thinner and lighter, and came in an 80 GB model as well. The Zune80 came out a year later.

The flash Zunes came out a month after the iPod Nano (3rd gen) again at the same price.

The ZuneHD came out *two* years after the iPod touch, and one year after the App Store opened.

At what point, exactly, did the Zune shit all over the iPod?

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And here's where I need to disagree. Honestly, I hate doing this, but I get so frustrated at the "lol apple bias" and/or "apple makes shitty products that they market really well" stance. (not saying you did the latter) Straight up, Apple is successful because they make good products.

So I check the wiki. Zune30 came out in Nov 2006. At that time, the iPod Classic (5th gen) was the same price, many times smaller, thinner and lighter, and came in an 80 GB model as well. The Zune80 came out a year later.

At what point, exactly, did the Zune shit all over the iPod?

Apple make good products, they also know how to market themselves. I never said they didn't.

So dude, believe me. I was there.

The iPod (as it was known back then) was slightly smaller (actually thinner), and slightly lighter. Not "many times"(!). (Where did you come up with that!) The Zune's screen was 20% larger (more akin to what we take for granted today -- the iPod's was pretty small by comparison, especially for watching videos, even though that's what it was known for). The Zune had a MUCH nicer interface that was more intuitive. (The iPod was still entirely limited to that ugly white and blue at the time, and it forced you to go back out of an album, and then into another one if you wanted to change what you were listening to.)

Since Apple fan-boys go on and on about the little touches that Apple put into their products, how about these for the Zune?

A Zune user could pull off any of the music they had onto their player onto someone else's computer. (The iPod was still massively locked down back then.)

You could unplug your Zune without having to "eject" it. (At the time, you got a great big DO NOT UNPLUG YOUR IPOD warning with Apple's player -- tempting corruption if you forgot to click eject.)

The headphones were magnetized so the cables wouldn't get so entangled in your pocket.

If you unplugged your headphones while a song was playing, the Zune would automatically pause the song, saving your battery, and your place.

As a Zune user you could subscribe to the Zune Pass service and get unlimited songs (this has since become popular in the guise of Spotify).

And finally, as a nice little sweetener, the Zune had an FM radio built in, too.

And how about this? The music sounded much better coming out of the Zune! I did many tests, with several different people, with different songs, headphones, etc., and we all agreed the Zune sounded better.

How do I know all this? Because when the Zune came out I was fascinated by the press's reaction to it. I'd just bought one, and my gf at the time had just bought an iPod. We compared meticulously, because we were both interested in which was actually better. (She came to regret buying an iPod, and wished she owned a Zune.)

And I watched the press like a hawk. Their reviews were, for the most part, total bollocks.

Yes, the Zune was slightly thicker (the actual difference? 0.15 of an inch), and it didn't have a "touch" interface... but that's all the reviews focused on.

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I think they have an open API allowing anyone to integrate the pen into their app. How does it not seem ideal for drawing and painting? That was exactly what I'd imagined myself doing with it.. :o

Just the video showed it did not have all of the functions a Wacom pen would have. The other issue I would have is the end is very thick and seems kind of clunky, while on a Wacom pen I can change out the nibs to different sizes or points. The way the video showed seemed like it would be more ideal for notetaking and sketching than full on finished art. It doesn't seem like there's anything that is an equal fully functional direct competitor to the Cintiq yet, unfortunately.

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I was always pretty interested in the Zune, but it was never released in the UK and I'm not a fan of buying international electronics. It's a shame it didn't survive long enough to get the chance the make an impact worldwide as the quality did actually seem to be there.

That said, I'm guessing most of what it did right will be incorporated into Windows Phone (which I personally think is going to be quite a success story given a few more years like Android) — which reflects the increasing trend of people simply using their phones for music playback.

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The iPod (as it was known back then) was slightly smaller (actually thinner), and slightly lighter. Not "many times"(!). (Where did you come up with that!)

Oh snap, you're totally right. I always perceived it to be bulky, but I guess it wasn't. It is around 20% thicker, so maybe that's where I got it from?

The Zune's screen was 20% larger (more akin to what we take for granted today -- the iPod's was pretty small by comparison, especially for watching videos, even though that's what it was known for).

But Zune optimized for the wrong operation. iPods, even the video, was still primarily a music playing device. So was the Zune. Making a smaller device to support the 80/90% action makes sense. The Zune got caught up in winning the spec game, but it focused on the wrong specs.

The reason why the iPod touch can justify the big screen is because it does so much more than just play videos. Safari alone justifies it, never mind Video games.

(edit: this is really weird, but the forum won't let me write video-games as a single word! what type of cruel joke/bug is this?!?!)

The Zune had a MUCH nicer interface that was more intuitive. (The iPod was still entirely limited to that ugly white and blue at the time, and it forced you to go back out of an album, and then into another one if you wanted to change what you were listening to.)

I hear this kind of thing a lot, but faster != easier. The iPod gave you a very clear hierarchy, and a very simple interface to scroll through it. (that the scroll wheel reacted to velocity was particularly genius). The Zune gave you this two-dimensional "space" to navigate. Faster? Yes. Easier? Nope.

Since Apple fan-boys go on and on about the little touches that Apple put into their products, how about these for the Zune?

PEDANTIC FACTUAL CORRECTION MODE: the auto-pause thing was on iPod first.

Apart from that, yeah, some cool stuff for sure. (didn't know about the magnetized headphones thing!) The Zune service had it easy because the record companies were desperate for competition. If Apple could, they would have gotten rid of DRM sooner. Zune Pass was/is awesome.

But here's the thing: at what point does the Zune shit all over the iPod? I'm not just being a pedantic jerk here, it's an important distinction. For the Zune to succeed, it couldn't just be a little better than the iPod. It had to be much, much better.

Let me put it to you like this: the iPod shit all over the Creative Nomad. The iPhone shit all over the Blackberry. Do you think the comparison between the Zune and iPod is that stark?

Honestly, I'll take your word regarding the reviews, but like I said above, it really doesn't matter. Tech journalists bet on the wrong horse with hilarious frequency. The point is that the Zune was never going to succeed because it did way too little, way too late.

What bothers me is that Microsoft can do so much better. My favourite example is the response to the Wii. They came way, way late to the party, but holy shit was Kinect something else! I don't even think it's any good, but I respect that it was a way out there, incredibly innovative device. And guess what? The reviews, for the most part, ripped it apart. Didn't stop it from selling 8 million units in no time.

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(edit: this is really weird, but the forum won't let me write video-games as a single word! what type of cruel joke/bug is this?!?!)

Why would you want to?

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I hear this kind of thing a lot, but faster != easier. The iPod gave you a very clear hierarchy, and a very simple interface to scroll through it. (that the scroll wheel reacted to velocity was particularly genius). The Zune gave you this two-dimensional "space" to navigate. Faster? Yes. Easier? Nope.

I have owned a couple iPods and a couple Zunes and I prefer the Zune interface much more. The Zune interface is basically the same as the iPod's, except I don't have to back out of everything to switch from category to category. Also the squircle on the Zune is velocity sensitive.

Either way, these days I use my phone for 90% of music, the other 10% is my Zune 80 in my car. I had a 40gig iPod something like 8 years ago, whatever gen that was and it broke, they replaced it was a 20 gig one after charging me for repairs which was lame, and which broke. I got the 30gig video iPod and it broke, at which point I got a Zune 30. It was nice, but when the second gen Zunes came out I got an 80 and gave the 30 to my friend. It's also worth noting that my neither of my Zunes has had any problems except I messed up the screen on my 80, I forget how but it was 100% my fault, and I got it replaced in 3 days no charges no questions asked, and it was one of the customized laser etched Originals that came in a big box with some extra stuff and they just sent me a whole new box.

I also have an iPod nano from a billion years ago that is a champ and still going strong, but I never use it. If I started running outside more I'd use it, but I haven't done much running in a while.

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I have owned a couple iPods and a couple Zunes and I prefer the Zune interface much more. The Zune interface is basically the same as the iPod's, except I don't have to back out of everything to switch from category to category. Also the squircle on the Zune is velocity sensitive.

Yep, exactly. Sorry SiN but you're talking out of your ass.

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Yep, exactly. Sorry SiN but you're talking out of your ass.

There's that classic ThunderPeel charm we all know and love. ;)

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Sorry, I know it was a bit harsh, it's just very frustrating to have someone ignore what you write and essentially make the argument, "the Zune was worse than the iPod Video on release because it was 0.15 an inch thicker", and that the Zune was treated fairly in the press, when it wasn't. *sigh*

zune_ipod_top.jpg

Here's an example of newspapers giving up on the Zune before it was even alive:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2006/nov/16/guardianweeklytechnologysection2

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/09/technology/09pogue.html (read until the end)

(I bet these same writers didn't write off the iPad 3 despite the fact it was larger and heavier than the iPad 2.)

Anyways, apologies, SiN. Bad form on my part. I could write more reasons why you're wrong, but I feel like you've already made up your mind based on what you want to believe, rather than actually listen to someone who was actually there, and who watched it all unfold with keen interest.

As for Apple bias in the press, consider the following: http://www.reuters.c...E84L17P20120522

Dell say that their shares came in slightly lower than predicted, but still on an upward trajectory. The reason: The European market. And yet twice in the article the journalist advertises the iPad, despite the fact that the Dell interviewee made no mention of the product. WTH? And I'd argue things are much better than they used to be. Back when the Zune was released, it was FAR worse.

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and that the Zune was treated fairly in the press, when it wasn't. *sigh*

But what Sin actually said was this!

Honestly, I'll take your word regarding the reviews, but like I said above, it really doesn't matter.

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Yes, you're right, but it's not so much as tech journalists "betting on the wrong horse" (as SiN put it), it's about them having a BIAS. That's something different (and that's what I linked to).

This discussion has gotten pretty silly now, because the only way to take it forward is to start debating on the meaning of the phrase "shitting all over it". That's pretty absurd.

SiN's argument about the Zune "optimising for the wrong thing" is also pretty silly: It was up against the "iPod Video"... that's how Apple was selling the 5G iPod. The video part was supposed to be a reason to upgrade from your previous model. And even if that wasn't the case, the bigger screen of the Zune did nothing to damage the Zune's ability to play music. Nor did the tiny bit of extra weight, or a tiny bit bigger case.

The Zune was better than the iPod, and the Zune Software is still is better than iTunes (much to my annoyance)... It doesn't matter by how much. This was never a discussion as to the reason why the Zune failed, this was started when SiN made some silly made-up statements about the Zune, and then insisted there was never any media bias against it.

SiN, you may well be right about why the Zune failed, but the media reaction was unbalanced and did nothing to help. To anyone jumping into the MP3 player arena, the Zune was a very viable option, but you wouldn't know that from the press's reaction.

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Anyhoo, I've done a piss poor job of debating like a gent. That's what you get for trying to quickly spew out replies while in work, and not properly engaging with what's being said.

How many times must I learn this lesson?

Apologies SiN.

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The problem with the Zune wasn't the hardware specs, it was the software and content eco system built up around it. The market generally only allows for one walled garden to succeed at any given time. And Zune was just another walled garden. If you're going to be locked in, you want to be locked into the option that is the most popular because there will at least be an ecosystem built up around it. Apple had the more mature (and popular) walled garden. All access streaming plans really aren't that compelling if you generally spend less than $15 a month on music. That's why Rhapsody, Napster, etc never took off.

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The problem with the Zune wasn't the hardware specs, it was the software and content eco system built up around it. The market generally only allows for one walled garden to succeed at any given time. And Zune was just another walled garden. If you're going to be locked in, you want to be locked into the option that is the most popular because there will at least be an ecosystem built up around it. Apple had the more mature (and popular) walled garden. All access streaming plans really aren't that compelling if you generally spend less than $15 a month on music. That's why Rhapsody, Napster, etc never took off.

Amazon, Itunes, Spotify.

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Amazon, Itunes, Spotify.

One DRM-free solution (not walled!), THE walled garden that I said the market was already bearing, and a streaming solution that has had to switch to a hybrid model based on advertising.

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An easy mistake to make, but you compared the Zune30 to the iPod 80GB. Here's a better comparison shot:

145777-microsoft-zune-thickness-comparison.jpg

(left to right: iPod 5th gen 30GB, iPod 5th gen 80GB and, I believe, the Zune30)

*Big* difference IMO.

@TheLastBaron: to clarify, I was saying the Zune30 doesn't have a velocity sensitive scroll wheel. Honestly, apart from the crap build quality, I think the squircle is a pretty genius UI. If Microsoft launched with the flash Zunes they would have stood a better chance.

On quality, I had two flash Zunes, both died on me within a year. The backlight died on one, and the battery died (well, 15 minute life) on the other. Microsoft Canada refused to fix them for me because I bought them from the States. :/

Every iPod (Classic 5th gen, touch), iPhone (3GS, 4S) and iPad (1st, 3rd gen) I've owned are still in great condition. (or so members of family who now own them have informed me :)).

I didn't mention any of that because it's all anecdotal.

---

On the interface, it's hard to have a "right" answer. But I'll say that if the Zune had a remarkably better (or even marginally better) interface it would have succeeded. The original iPod didn't succeed because of press reviews, or on specs, or on price (lol), it succeeded because it had an excellent, usable interface. And, well, because it shit all over the competition.

As for the review BIAS (new rule: it *has* to be all-caps for the rest of this thread), I read Pogue's review, and uhhhh:

But the opposite list — features the iPod has that the Zune doesn’t — could stretch to Steve Ballmer’s house and back 10 times.

The music catalog is much smaller — 2 million vs. 3.5 million on iTunes — a fact that Microsoft ham-handedly tries to conceal by listing stuff that it doesn’t actually sell, like Beatles albums.

The Zune store is also missing gift certificates, allowances, user-submitted playlists and so on. (...) the Zune store doesn’t let you subscribe or download podcasts.

The Zune 1.0 player is pretty barren, too. It doesn’t have a single standard iPod amenity: no games, alarm clock, stopwatch, world clock, password-protected volume limiter, equalizer, calendar, address book or notes module.

Naturally, you also miss out on the 3,000 iPod accessories (...) Over 80 percent of 2007 cars will have an iPod connector option — zero for Zune.

And there’s only one Zune model; there’s no equivalent of the iPod Nano or Shuffle.

This doesn't sound like entirely unreasonable criticism.

(aside: re the iPad 3, if the Zune was a bit thicker and heavier but had the greatest screen mankind has ever witnessed, I think Pogue would have let it slide ;))

Again, the reason Apple gets away with this shit is because they build things that are *remarkably* better than the competition. You can skimp on features if your product is revolutionary (see iPhone, or even Wii).

But if your product is marginally better than the competition in some aspects, then all the little things really do matter. With the Zune, I'm not arguing it was a terrible device, but all the little things make it hard to recommend over an iPod.

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Me, 10 seconds ago:

With the Zune, I'm not arguing it was a terrible device, but all the little things make it hard to recommend over an iPod.

Me, a couple of days ago:

The squircle is a great hardware interface, but it was so cheap that I kept getting false positive inputs. That really ruined the rest of the well thought software UI for me. The rest of the device was pretty crappy as well.

*ahem* so it's possible I argued the Zune was a terrible device by calling it "pretty crappy". :P But! I was referring to the overall build quality, which ... well, it wasn't bad, but it wasn't great either. For this, I apologize.

I don't think that changes my argument above though.

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*Big* difference IMO

Ugh... that's not a fair comparison screenshot. As someone who, you know, compared them IN REAL LIFE, I can attest that it made little or no difference. Once again. 0.15 of an inch! Aka 0.38cm! If anyone used that as a buying decision, they'd be a complete idiot.

On the interface, it's hard to have a "right" answer. But I'll say that if the Zune had a remarkably better (or even marginally better) interface it would have succeeded. The original iPod didn't succeed because of press reviews, or on specs, or on price (lol), it succeeded because it had an excellent, usable interface. And, well, because it shit all over the competition.

Oh man.

I read Pogue's review, and uhhhh: This doesn't sound like entirely unreasonable criticism.

That speaks volumes.

But if your product is marginally better than the competition in some aspects, then all the little things really do matter. With the Zune, I'm not arguing it was a terrible device, but all the little things make it hard to recommend over an iPod.

I don't even know what we're talking about anymore. I think all the points have been made, and needless to say, I disagree.

So, agree to disagree?

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Ugh... that's not a fair comparison screenshot. As someone who, you know, compared them IN REAL LIFE, I can attest that it made little or no difference. Once again. 0.15 of an inch! Aka 0.38cm! If anyone used that as a buying decision, they'd be a complete idiot.

I must be a complete idiot, because that looks really bulky. I never had the original fat iPod -- only had a 5th gen one, but whenever I saw/held one of the thick ones, it seemed really fat and bulky. And the Zune is a bit more so. But if it was otherwise better in every way, I might have decided to get a Zune if I had needed one. I don't usually buy new hardware often (e.g. my current iPhone 3GS I've had 3 years and it's my 3rd ever phone, and I suspect it will last 1-2 more years -- the second one was a stupid Fujitsu Windows Mobile 5 PDA/Phone that was a real mistake to buy).

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