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Salka

You don't have to pass an IQ test to be a senator

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His country was FOUNDED by religious people. The person who populated the theory of evolution was religious. I'm kind of tired of people attacking religion, to be honest.

As Einstein put it: "I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."

Bill Maher could use a little humility.

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I don't think that was the point of the clip.

This senator guy pretty much called himself an idiot.

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I don't think that was the point of the clip.

This senator guy pretty much called himself an idiot.

It certainly looks that way, but how much of that is editing and how much is a genuine representation of what was said?

Lets also not forget the Bill Maher has shown himself to be as stupid and dangerous as any religious fundamentalist by telling pregnant women not to get the swine flu shots:

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/bill-maher-vs-the-flu-vaccine/

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His country was FOUNDED by religious people. The person who populated the theory of evolution was religious. I'm kind of tired of people attacking religion, to be honest.

As Einstein put it: "I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."

Bill Maher could use a little humility.

Yer, regardless of any beliefs I just hate it when people magiically forget what Metaphor and Symbolism are the second they start talking about the bible and other religious texts.

Fundamentalists don't help by doggedly twisting the book into their pre-conceived mold and making everyone else thinks that's what it is.

And this isn't just a Christian thing, I bet that the Koran has a lot more in it than the word Jihad, but that doesn't really get put forward.

Also, I feel so sorry for you guys in the states, at least herre when someone gets inexplicably placed in political office its probably because he was University buddies with more powerful politicians. Which at least means he WENT to university.

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The Bible and The Koran are fairly similar and people distort and twist things on both sides. I recall an anti-choice activist who was holding up disgusting banners outside a clinic in Brighton, quoting the Bible at me as justification for what she was doing. She spoke out of turn to a man, and she was wearing mixed materials, and let's face it she probably eats shrimp too. Picking and choosing...

I think that when you read the Bible it becomes fairly difficult not to feel slightly condescending towards people who put any weight in the validity of it. I know Christians who claim not to know whether the Bible is true or not, but they live by the values of it that they believe are good ones (while simultaneously not hating on gay people because they reckon God has probably had a change of mind since then, like he has regarding slaves, shrimp and concubines). I also know Christians who believe all or most of the Bible is true and really, it's a bit fucking worrying. Mark Lunsford Pryor believes in the Rapture and I think that's just about as stupid as people who believe Santa Claus is real past the age of about four, or people who mouth off about black people or women being inferior somehow. I don't think it's wrong to attack or challenge these things.

But also that's not why I posted the video, I posted it because it's hilarious.

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Well that's exactly what I'm talking about, perfect example, I bet you you can't find the word rapture in the origional manuscripts of the bible, or Trinity or Transubbstantiation or Virgin Mary Mother of God. Whether or not the bible is the word of god or not, most of what main stream religion teaches from it is exclusively man-made. Which is my problem with this sort of thing.

Right, that WAS hilarious, so I won't distract from that anymore, anyone got anymore hilarious dumb politican videoss?

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I don't think that was the point of the clip.

This senator guy pretty much called himself an idiot.

The point of the clip was to make fun of religious people. Yes, the Senator made an ass of himself, but the "joke" was that the Senator seemingly admits that he's religious because he has a low IQ. I'm willing to bet my left testicle that it's taken from Maher's documentary, "Religulous". (Edit: It was.)

Anyways, sorry for not laughing.

On a side note: Religious bigots would still be bigots if you took their religion away from them. It's not like someone's going to go, "I consider homosexuality unnatural and wrong because it says so in The Bible... What's that? You've proven to me that God doesn't exist and The Bible is bunk? Well then! I think homosexuality is perfectly normal!" People use religion to backup beliefs they already hold -- attacking their religion isn't going to change their minds, they'll just justify their beliefs in some other way.

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My tone toward religion used to be similar to Maher's, but I've learned that it simply isn't worth the effort. Everyone's relationship with faith and whatnot is their own journey that means something to them as an individual, so there's really no harm in letting them believe what they believe. Treating people right is what's important, and allowing them to do as they see fit is a part of that. I skew toward beign a humanist, but being a condescending, cynical turd about it gets you nowhere in life.

I know a lot of hateful, hypocritical junk comes from arguments using religion as a basis for their argument, but like ThunderPeel said, they're just using religious material to back up their already-developed opinions, even if the text doesn't explicity state what they believe.

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Same here, Tim-E. I used to be a proud atheist until Dawkins started publicly dismissing people because of their beliefs. Then I read The God Delusion and more interviews with Dawkins, and I realised two things: 1. Dawkins is attacking something he openly admits he doesn't understand (why someone would feel the need to believe in something). 2. By attacking other people's beliefs you become just as bad as the religious people you're supposedly fighting against. Worse still, I've met enough Atheists (note the capital "A") who are full of themselves because they think they're superior to religious people -- (again, surely the very thing they hate about religious people?).

Either way, my tolerance for anti-religious sentiment is zero at the moment (this isn't aimed at you, Yufster, Bill Maher just brought these thoughts to the forefront of my mind).

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Same here, Tim-E. I used to be a proud atheist until Dawkins started publicly dismissing people because of their beliefs. Then I read The God Delusion and more interviews with Dawkins, and I realised two things: 1. Dawkins is attacking something he openly admits he doesn't understand (why someone would feel the need to believe in something). 2. By attacking other people's beliefs you become just as bad as the religious people you're supposedly fighting against. Worse still, I've met enough Atheists (note the capital "A") who are full of themselves because they think they're superior to religious people -- (again, surely the very thing they hate about religious people?).

Either way, my tolerance for anti-religious sentiment is zero at the moment (this isn't aimed at you, Yufster, Bill Maher just brought these thoughts to the forefront of my mind).

Yep. Militant athiests typically are every bit as insufferable as super-crazy religious zealots. It's perfectly fine for someone to believe what they do, but being rude to people who think differently than you isn't the way to get your message across. It just means people are going to dismiss you immediately and not like you.

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The trouble is, religion is not benign. It's all jolly good to let people believe in whatever they want - fine. What is not fine is that the religious heirarchy foist their beliefs on everybody else which they can do because there are lots of people who are tacit semi believers. if there is some sort of ethical angle to a news story, they wheel out some church leader to speak on it, you don't need religion to be a moral agent yet the implication is that it is so. It is very difficult to escape religious indoctrination when they are run all the schools in your area. These are a couple of examples religion intruding in my life where I do not want it to and it has no right to do that.

Quoting Einstein is neither here nor there, we are not party to the pressures that famous people may be under to say the things they do so that doesn't hold any water in my opinion.

I just cannot get my head around why people still believe in religion. I mean really? Sure, science doesn't know everything, but heaven, hell, man in the sky with a beard, really?

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The trouble is, religion is not benign. It's all jolly good to let people believe in whatever they want - fine. What is not fine is that the religious heirarchy foist their beliefs on everybody else which they can do because there are lots of people who are tacit semi believers. if there is some sort of ethical angle to a news story, they wheel out some church leader to speak on it, you don't need religion to be a moral agent yet the implication is that it is so. It is very difficult to escape religious indoctrination when they are run all the schools in your area. These are a couple of examples religion intruding in my life where I do not want it to and it has no right to do that.

Quoting Einstein is neither here nor there, we are not party to the pressures that famous people may be under to say the things they do so that doesn't hold any water in my opinion.

I just cannot get my head around why people still believe in religion. I mean really? Sure, science doesn't know everything, but heaven, hell, man in the sky with a beard, really?

Ending your post in a completely condescending way kind of proves our point. You're saying "the religious people are forcing their beliefs on me" and then making fun of their beliefs a few sentences down. If you want to open someone's mind to your thought process or belief system, there are better ways to do it than "lol u believe in a bearded man in the sky." It's condescending and rude. Any religious person you'd want to engage in conversation with to open their mind about other ways to think about the world will completely disregard anything you say when you start making fun of how they think. What's the point in being passionate about expressing your ideas if your messaging means no one will listen to you?

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I didn't really mean to be condescending and rude, I genuinely just don't get how you can think that that's real, and in essence, that is what religious people believe. I can already see that we will have to agree to disagree because to me, religion is so obviously wrong that if I have to point it out to someone, the horse has already bolted.

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I don't believe in it, either, but most people on the planet are religious to varying degrees, so I think it's just kind of miserable to go through life thinking less of just about everyone you meet because of what they believe. I feel like if I went through life pushing people away because we differ in thoughts on religion or politics I'd be miserable and regretful later in life because I'd just be looked at like the douche that can't talk to people he deems lesser than him.

It's okay to accept things as they are just let people be. When you stop spending your life being critical and cynical of every thought everyone has, life is much more enjoyable.

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Ending your post in a completely condescending way kind of proves our point. You're saying "the religious people are forcing their beliefs on me" and then making fun of their beliefs a few sentences down. If you want to open someone's mind to your thought process or belief system, there are better ways to do it than "lol u believe in a bearded man in the sky."

What are they, though?

I don't mean to pose this as a rhetorical question, but a genuine one. Personally I have to agree with this:

to me, religion is so obviously wrong that if I have to point it out to someone, the horse has already bolted.

To me it seems like a clash of belief and facts and in an open discussion I generally struggle to address this. Or to put it differently: where to even begin? I think with Atheists it's (at least in general, I hope) not so much the notion that religious people have a different belief than we do and that there might be a problem, but that their belief is different from plain facts and that there might be a problem.

In theory this shouldn't be necessary and in the past I used to think what people believe in is their own damn business. Actually I still think that's the best way to go about it, the same as with pretty much every other belief, thought, perspective, opinion and orientation: what happens in other people's heads, homes and conversations is none of my or anyone else's business - unless those people make it that. And to that extent I am a bit concerned about this, too:

The trouble is, religion is not benign. It's all jolly good to let people believe in whatever they want - fine. What is not fine is that the religious heirarchy foist their beliefs on everybody else which they can do because there are lots of people who are tacit semi believers. if there is some sort of ethical angle to a news story, they wheel out some church leader to speak on it, you don't need religion to be a moral agent yet the implication is that it is so. It is very difficult to escape religious indoctrination when they are run all the schools in your area. These are a couple of examples religion intruding in my life where I do not want it to and it has no right to do that.

I don't mean to derail the topic too much or fuel some fire, apologies if I did. It is just a topic I'm personally rather interested in, because I actually don't have a good grasp on how to handle it. I'm most likely one of the condescending ones myself and I wouldn't mind being able to assume a more tolerant position on the topic.

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You're not derailing at all.

I think religion is ultimately a vehicle people use to come to terms with their eventual death and as a means to have some sort of moral guidance. The idea of dying and having nothing being there to greet you once your heart stops beating is something a lot of people struggle with. Same goes with grief and whatnot. I don't think any religion is necessary whatsoever to teach morality, but these two things are what I observe to be the biggies in what drives someone to follow a religious path. I think the Bible and books like it are books with moral stories to help guide people and yes, some people take it a bit too literally despite scientific evidence proving some things are not scientifically sound. History shows that people like a little guidance throughout life, so people latch onto it.

I think if something helps people become more comfortable about life and what comes after it, then it's okay to just let them think whatever they will. If they're pushy about it, then that becomes an issue with an individual and not religion as a whole. I'm not saying that "ignorance is bliss" or whatever; just that each person uses different things to come to terms with "the big questions" and that whatever makes them happy with themselves and treat others with respect is okay.

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I didn't really mean to be condescending and rude, I genuinely just don't get how you can think that that's real, and in essence, that is what religious people believe. I can already see that we will have to agree to disagree because to me, religion is so obviously wrong that if I have to point it out to someone, the horse has already bolted.

There are religions that don't hold to these concepts. Although, one could easily argue that those are more philosophies than they are religions.

At any rate, the idea of a "spirit" of a human being holds a lot of water with people. I think that's why people choose to continue to believe, more than anything else. They don't want to believe they're just some random assortment of atoms that just happens to work in exactly the way they work. It's not a big step from there to a loss of free will. That's big. Who wants to live in a world where everything they do is predetermined?

It is sort of depressing! Religion makes people feel better.

ORGANIZED religion can do some really shitty things sometimes, but I don't think you can hold that against the individual that chooses to believe in a magical paradise after death. I choose to believe a lot of things differently from other people.

I have more than one friend who is a devout Christian. I'm well aware I think less of them for it. It's impossible not to. How could they believe in some magical candy land in the sky after death? That said, I don't hold it against them, either. It is their choice, and if it makes them happier, then by all means. As long as they don't try to force their beliefs on me, I will let them be, no matter how completely and utterly wrong they are.

But I absolutely will hold it against someone with real power over me and mine to use their religious beliefs to justify their actions. Fuck you, get out of my country. Whether or not that's what this Senator Pryor has done, I do not know. But there are plenty of people in power who are guilty of this.

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I see what you are saying but I think you're blind to just how much religion interferes with people's lives whether they like it or not. Religion as a whole is 'pushy' because of the individuals within it, the two aren't seperable, one exists because of the other. Also, I found your previous post (Tim-E) to be incredibly patronising.

Edit: Twig posted while I was typing, my reply was to Tim-E.

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+1 to Twig

I appologize if I've come off as patronising. My wife and I have a five month old and one thing I've struggled with is overcoming how cynical of a person I can be if I let myself go unchecked. My attitude toward religious people is just another part of that. I didn't mean to be pushy or condesending; it's the opposite that I was going for.

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What may drive a lot of atheists to taking up an aggressive approach is that they realize how absurdly entrenched religion is in our society. Flailing wildly and violently against it, or otherwise just openly mocking it with perhaps a feigned air of nonchalance, is the only option they have left. An honest, open discourse based on human (!!) logic, that otherwise dictates our every waking moment, is not possible about religion. Lesser things have driven men mad.

As for my personal way of going about my business: online and in writing I am pretty outspoken about religion and will frequently attack and mock it. As soon as a real, religious person is before me, however, basic human decency kicks in and overrides all of that and I become super accepting of whatever someone believes.

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Fuck you, get out of my country.

This made me laugh out loud.

As for this discussion, I literally have 0 opinions on religion, it is something that I spend no time thinking about outside of when it gets brought up when talking to my friends which is usually in a similar context to this thread. One of my friends is super anti-religion, to the point that he's doing a dual major in college so he can major in theology and is constantly reading books on religion and watching religious debates. He actually talks to religious people though, as in he doesn't think less of them as far as I can tell and he isn't a condescending cunt when he tries to explain to them why he feels that what they believe is wrong. I still find it pretty annoying how he spends a gigantic amount of effort pursuing something that is pointless, but at least he is reasonable about it and cares to actually know what he is talking about. I have basically no tolerance towards the random people on the internet though who berate religion but don't actually know anything about it and have never even read the bible, it's one of the most annoying things in the world to me. My sister is like that. She hates all religious people and is always talking shit about how stupid they are (she doesn't talk about them like they're real people at all), but she refuses to read the bible to even know what it is they believe, and on top of that she majored in public health and goes to lots of third world places like Africa and Thailand and South America and such to help people and every time every single other person there is religious, usually Mormon, and she ends up being friends with hem, but then comes back and then still blindly hates every single person who has any sort of religious beliefs.

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