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Some heartless jackass makes a fake Majora's Mask HD trailer because he hates me, specifically

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Ack, well then my memory of that game isn't as clear as i thought it was.

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The guys on the Bombcast said that this would not make for a good first Zelda game to actually finish. Would you people agree? Because I was thinking of doing exactly that when the new version comes out for the 3DS...

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I don't have the context for the statement, but from where I'm standing that comes off as them saying that Majora's Mask isn't a accurate representation of the series as a whole.  Which is the truth, but it's a poor way of articulating it.  There's no reason it couldn't be your first Zelda game.  Just don't expect any others you play to feel quite like it.

 

If they were talking about plot, then the suggestion is even more ridiculous, because to the extent that the Zelda saga even has an overarching storyline that matters (which it doesn't, at all, for the record), Majora's Mask is a standalone, even spinoffish installment.  The kinship with Ocarina is rooted entirely in the fact that they share an engine and feature the same incarnation of the protagonist.  There's nothing important about knowing that, though.

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Some of the GB guys have also just generally been big detractors of Majora, there isn't a ton of fondness for the game out of that crowd.

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Oh, well if they're speaking negatively of the game's quality then they've pretty much inoculated themselves against credibility anyway.  Just bein' real.  -_-

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The guys on the Bombcast said that this would not make for a good first Zelda game to actually finish. Would you people agree? Because I was thinking of doing exactly that when the new version comes out for the 3DS...

 

As I said upthread, Majora's Mask was my first 3D Zelda. I played Link's Awakening before it and I might have played the first dungeon of Ocarina first, but Majora defines 3D Zelda for me. I don't feel my appreciation of the game or the series is any less because of that.

 

Basically, the Giant Bomb guys don't know what they're talking about.

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More to the point, why haven't you already played Ocarina of Time?! Go get it! It's on 3DS!

I kinda feel that the amount of people who have played Majora's Mask without having played Ocarina first is small enough, and that their experience of the two games will be interestingly different enough from our own to make it worth Horza waiting until they've completed Majora's Mask and maybe posted their impressions before they finally get around to Ocarina, classic though it is. 

The people who say that it's not a good starting point for the series are probably looking at it from a point of whether it is most representative of the general feel of most entries in the series, which I guess from a conventional viewpoint would be Link To The Past for the 2D games and Ocarina for the 3D ones. Oddly enough, going by this viewpoint, the actual first Zelda game wouldn't be a very good first Zelda game for a newcomer to the series, due to the series having largely moved from that more exploration and combat focused style to a heavier emphasis on puzzle solving.

 

It's also possible another reason for this opinion is due to the perceived difficulty of the game, which although certainly more pronounced that Ocarina probably isn't insurmountable for most gamers. There's also the view that MM is a sort of companion piece to OOT, and thus it is necessary to play the former to have the context to understand the later. While this is an understandable viewpoint I don't see it as hugely persuasive, as previously stated MM is completely standalone, and I rather like the idea of someone coming to it without the context of OOT and not having their perception of it coloured by the earlier game, but maybe it being the other way round, so someone thinks that Hyrule is actually the bizarro-world form of Termina.

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Some of the GB guys have also just generally been big detractors of Majora, there isn't a ton of fondness for the game out of that crowd.

I think the only real hater is Jeff, who wasn't on this week (fortunately. It meant we could go the whole segment without a single "yeah but MM is shit anyway").

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Did I just read that they didn't make the fishboss easier, instead making it harder? Oh my.

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Well, it seems like it's both.  It's easier in the sense that the camera is less atrocious (a big issue with the original game) and apparently his weak spot is more explicit.  On the other hand, it looks like they've expanded the battle somewhat with this platform disappearing stuff!

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My impression from the GB stuff is that it wouldn't be a great starting point simply because the mechanics are complicated and poorly explained, making it doubly difficult to learn if you're not already familiar with the mechanics that do carry over from older games.

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The guys on the Bombcast said that this would not make for a good first Zelda game to actually finish. Would you people agree? Because I was thinking of doing exactly that when the new version comes out for the 3DS...

I would agree. It's one of the few titles in the series that is a direct sequel, so I think ideally it should be enjoyed after OOT. Not so much in the sense that the plot carries over, but Majora's Mask is one of the most surreal Zelda games, and a big part if it's surrealness comes from the fact that it reappropriates a ton of assets and characters from Ocarina, but twists them in slight ways. If you don't have the context of who all these people were in OOT, that element of the game will be lost on you. 

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Okay, okay, i've listened to this episode of the Bombcast, and i think those guys kind of have a point. (Though Brad's argument started and stopped at being dismissive of the game for it having a time limit.)


More broadly though, they were generally just going on about Majora being probably the most obtuse and difficult Zelda game, and they're not necessarily wrong.

As i said before, i think you definitely benefit from having a good solid understanding of other 3D Zelda games before going into Majora, so that the only things you're struggling with are the things unique to Majora. (Dan asserts that you need to abuse a secret in the game and manipulate time in a certain way to provide a way more manageable time limit for dungeons. I don't think he's correct in it being necessary, i'm pretty sure i had played through most of the game without knowing it was there, but it is an available option. At the very least, you want to reset the clock before starting a dungeon.)

I mean, but yeah, if you go into those dungeons and you're struggling to figure out block pushing puzzle #23, you're going to run out of time. It definitely helps to already have a good sense for how those things play out. (Replaying the dungeons goes quicker than you would expect though, it's not the severe penalty everybody always builds it up in their heads as.)

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But there's no reason you should run out of time in dungeons unless you are playing directly from the questing in the area right before the dungeon. But they give you a song to restore the area so you are supposed to start over from the first day, go to the area, play the song, then do the dungeon.

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I kinda feel that the amount of people who have played Majora's Mask without having played Ocarina first is small enough, and that their experience of the two games will be interestingly different enough from our own to make it worth Horza waiting until they've completed Majora's Mask and maybe posted their impressions before they finally get around to Ocarina, classic though it is. 

 

I wasn't trying to say that one must play OoT before MM for any reason relevant to experiencing the games, it was more that OoT is readily available, an an absolute classic, so why wouldn't Horza have played it?

 

I personally think WW is the best place to start. Play the best, forget the rest.

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A lot of the giantbomb criticism sounds like 'There's a timer?? Fuck this game!' and in theory I sympathise. Countdown timers in Sonic and Mario always puzzled me and I think they take away more than they add to those games. But I don't remember it being a massive problem in Majora's Mask. Granted, I haven't played it since it came out but it's not maddeningly imprinted on my brain. And I'm pri.teeee rubbish at games. Doesn't time slow down or stop in the dungeons? The 3-day cycle created interesting puzzle and narrative opportunities and I honestly don't recall getting irritated with it.

Edit. Having said that, I also liked the sailing sections in Wind Waker that others found long and irksome. That were some good chill time. Nice scenery. Too fast, too slow - some people are never happy!

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Eh... the timer. Meh. I don't think it ever really hampered my game, I only ever ran out of time once or twice when I first played through it. That said, it did add a layer of stress that I wasn't accustomed to in a Zelda game. To me, Zelda is a lot about exploring so having it happen on the clock was disconcerting. Additionally, I wasn't too happy with the idea that to get certain non-essential yet desirable masks you'd have to perfectly coordinate a multi-day scheme.

 

Nonetheless, I'm buying MM 3D so I guess it didn't bother me all that much.

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To me, Zelda is a lot about exploring so having it happen on the clock was disconcerting. Additionally, I wasn't too happy with the idea that to get certain

 

This is something I hadn't thought about before, but I think this statement is the perfect argument for why Majora's Mask is a better place to start the series than people give it credit for. A lot of complaints people have about Majora are a variation of "this is not what I expect from Zelda." Since it was my first 3D Zelda, I didn't have any of those expectations, so maybe I was able to better appreciate it on its own terms.

 

It might be telling that the only Zelda I played prior to Majora was Link's Awakening, which, while very different, has a similar "puzzle-box" feeling to it. So for me, Zelda has never been "about exploring." Zelda is about environmental puzzles that become increasingly complex as you gain new abilities, because that's what Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask are about. Both have exploring, but not in the same way that the original or Ocarina or Wind Waker have it.

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I remember at the time being struck at how similar Majora's mask and The Last Express are, for being nothing alike.  Both had a cast of characters operating on a schedule, and invited you to go back in time and get them to play off each other in interesting ways.  Also, both felt like takes on making a small world very densely filled with things to explore and fine.

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I am so disgusted.  I just lost my first batch of real progress because playing the Song of Time does not save the game as it does in the original.

 

Good remake, though.  The differences are minor, but I'm noticing every last one of them.

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Giant Bomb and I have nothing in common. The timer makes the game more pressing, more dramatic, and significantly more exciting. If you're having an issue with it, you just slow time down, easy enough. This game is a departure from the norm in quite a few new ways, but I have to say, the thing that hardly gets talked about is the new travel methods that the game introduces. Like, being able to hover around in Deku Scrub mode is already neat (and used well throughout the early part of the game, I think), but the Zora Mask swimming feels fantastic, and the Goron Mask rolling allows for one of the great boss battles in Zelda history. 

 

I'm really loving this remake, even if I can also see all of the changes (you know, putting the rupee bank right out on the clock tower is a great idea, actually, considering how out of the way it was originally). 

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I always thought the significance of putting the bank in West Clock Town in the original was because that positioned it right by the trading post.

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This seems to have become the general "Talking about Zelda" thread, and it's related, so I'll ask my question here.

 

I grew up on the 2D Zeldas, didn't have an N64 so I missed out on that era. The first 3D Zelda I got was Twilight Princess, and boy, I just didn't like anything about that game. It soured me on 3D Zeldas as a whole (so much of what I didn't like felt like it would've been better if it were on a Gameboy), and I pretty much gave up on the franchise.

 

Since then, I've been told repeatedly that TP is the weakest 3D Zelda, so I'm thinking about giving the series another try. I have a 3DS, where do you recommend I start as a fan of the 2D ones?

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Are you saying you want to give the 3D installations another try or are you looking for recommendations for other 2D Zeldas like Minish Cap or the Oracle games?

 

I'd say give Wind Waker HD a go if the former. Unless you don't have a WiiU and specifically only are looking for Ocarina or Majora on 3DS. In that case I'd say get a WiiU. Ocarina is somewhat primitive still and the 3DS one wasn't really tweaked in the way Majora was. Majora still manages to maybe be a bit too esoteric to jump back into the 3D Zelda games.

 

Does anyone like Phantom Hourglass or Spirit Tracks? I haven't played them yet. I have only heard they are mediocre for the most part.

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