Three Moves Ahead Episode 170: Classic Game Analysis - Kohan

[Troy Goodfellow]

Tom Chick comes back to the show to join Rob and Troy for a look back at one of the great real time strategy series – Timegate’s Kohan games. What made Kohan unique and what games, if any, have followed on its original ideas? Is Kohan 2: Kings of War really an inferior sequel? Cities as offensive weapons, the tricks around force posture and the mysteries of who the Kohan are are explored. Also, another one of Tom’s stupid quizzes.

Listen here.

Troy’s Kohan essay from the defunct decade series

[Atomskyu690]

Really great podcast guys,quite a discovery of that Kohan game.It seems such a fascinating mix between a COH for the Unit based game & Total War or Civilization for the map control.

[MikeO]

I will listen to this at work tonight. Most RTS games, even the god ones, wear out their welcome with me quickly. Kohan is the one I enjoyed the most over the longest period of time (going back to Dune 2, at least). It seemed less like a RTS clickfest than any other I've played.

[limper]

Kohan Immortal Sovereigns really is a great RTS, but (at least for me) the campaign is really hard. You really have to be quick with your buildup or you're overrun. To my chagrin i never beat the last Mission (on medium ), the onslaught in the beginning is just murderous.

[Codicier]

another game added to my steam wishlist. It was nice that they didn't get just talk about why the game deserves its place in the strategy game canon, but covered why someone would still want to play it.

Just browsing the wiki & the publicity surrounding Kohan, It does seem like there is a distinctly Arabian flavor to the world. It may have not done it much good at the time but it sure does make me keen to give it a whirl.

Side Note: Slaan v Slann

Kohans Slaan seem very similar to the Warhammer race of lizard men the Slann....

If there is a common myth both franchises are taking inspiration from i'm not having much luck finding it atm, and it feels strange that in a otherwise very original IP you have such seemingly blatant copying.

[ShadowTiger]

I looked up Slaan... apparently they also appear in NWN 2, though its not part of official D&D/Forgotten Realms lore.

Also Slann are technically based off frogs not lizards, if that makes any difference. There is a separate race called Lizardmen.

Neither seem to be based on any real mythology... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reptilian_humanoids

In general I think its fairly normal to borrow from other IP when creating new ones. Very little stuff is truely original anyways.

Anyways, I am interested in trying Kohan 2 after listening to this podcast, but I am not sure if its my cup of tea really. One of the things I hated about warcraft 3 was how slow it was and how many hitpoints the units have. There also doesn't seem to be enough mechanics to really keep me interested. I do like the lack of peon micromanagement, thats my biggest peeve with age of empires.

[Nate0124]

Great episode! Kohan 2 was a game I played the demo of over and over and over roughly around middle school. It's the game that moved me to beg my parents for Rise of Nations a bit later, which led me down the RTS rabbithole.. Thanks for the memories and the prod to finally go out and buy the damn thing!

[Shouta]

Very nice work on the episode. Kohan is a very underrated game and still holds up amazingly well today. A couple of things I want to comment on.

- As I recall from my conversations with a few Relic devs from 2003/2004, they were actually big Kohan fans at the time. Whether or not it was a direct influence, I don't know, but it can certainly be felt within the game design choices. In fact, when looking at Dawn of War and Kohan 2, you can see a few similarities in the approach to design, IMO.

- In regards to the game's Lore, while I agree that on the surface it's hard to get a sense of what's going on on the surface, it's pretty tightly written in the first game. The various races were a minor part of the story and while analogous to the usual fantasy groups, weren't as blatant. Kohan 2 really magnifies this to the point of ridiculousness. The factions also are deeply connected to the story and both represent philosphy and their style of play. From a marketing standpoint, it's rather dense but it was something very nice when you dove in.

- Being a long time Immortal Sovereigns and Ahriman's Gift fan (KIS/KAG respectively), there are some huge reasons why Kohan 2 wasn't well-liked by core Kohan fans. It basically boils down to the game being a "decayed" version of what the first two games were. Many of the elements are present but they aren't done in a manner that creates the same type of gameplay that we had come to expect. It was either a change to an existing element that totally ruined the synergy or totally removing elements that provided depth to the gameplay. It's a pretty long list but, it very much is a matter of gameplay and not just graphics.

[otthegreat]

Thanks for talking about Kohan, it was one of my favorite games back then and you guys did a great job describing what makes it special. This podcast made me buy it on steam and start playing again. To me they still hold up (apart from some issues - for some reason the minimap and building icons don't work for me) but I don't know how someone new to the games would feel.

As for Kohan vs. Kohan 2, I bought and played both but Kohan 2 definitely suffers from being a sequel in that it isn't new and original anymore. In the end, I prefer the original for various reasons - Shouta mentioned some - but I do enjoy some of the changes. I'm glad both exist.

I never got a chance to try multiplayer, though yes I've heard there were some technical problems, but if there's interest here, I'd be willing to give it a shot.

[Outlandish]

So, this sounds right up my alley and I'm shocked I've never played it. I blame it on the title and (lack of) marketing, as I've heard of Kohan before but never had a clue what it was. I am currently addicted to both Diablo 3 and Ascension though, so don't have time to play them all before Guild Wars 2 hopefully arrives to consume the rest of my free time. Steam has 3 choices, something like Ahriman's gift, Immortal heroes, and 2, all at the same price. If you could only buy one which would it be, and are there significant graphics or UI upgrades into 2 as while I'm not the pickiest I am finding it difficult to go back and play some of my old favorites now.

Maybe they cover some of that in the second half of the podcast as I'm only about halfway through at the moment.

[Rob Zacny]

What I have played is Ahrimen's Gift, and that was strongly favored by my expert Kohan buddies. I need to play Kohan 2 to see whether Tom is right, or whether the Kohan faithful were correct to be skeptical.

[robc]

Kohan Warchest on sale at Impulse for < $7.

http://www.impulsedr...ts/ESD-IMP-W949

It includes Kohan 1 & 2 + Kohan: Ahriman's Gift (the stand alone Kohan I expansion)

I think I'll take the plunge at this price.

[robc]

I can't remember if you mentioned this in the show or not. Did you prefer the skirmishes against the AI or the campaign? I'm playing at normal difficulty and the 2nd scenario in the campaign was actually pretty tough until I realized you have to go after the two closest enemy settlements fast. If you don't, you get steamrolled. I tend to like campaigns over random skirmishes, but so far it seems like the challenge is that they start off with more settlements and you have to move pretty quickly before they can capitalize on that.

[Codicier]

Kohan 1, 2 & it's expansions are in the current steam sale at 75% off, seems like a great chance to try it out if like me you hadnt yet.