pabosher

"Adults Should Read Adult Books" - Joel Stein

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Well, it's about coming of age, isn't it? That age wherein everything is just 'meh' and things just seem to happen to you. I remember very little of note happening in CitR, but it was totally written for my age (around 14, I think.)

Just because it's a classic doesn't mean it's not for Young Adults.

That's an interesting take. Again, it's been a while since I read it, but I saw it more as a book about the effects of emotional trauma than a coming of age story. I mean, does the protagonist really come of age in that book in any meaningful way? I'm not sure that he does. It's really more about him dealing with losing his brother.

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That's an interesting take. Again, it's been a while since I read it, but I saw it more as a book about the effects of emotional trauma than a coming of age story. I mean, does the protagonist really come of age in that book in any meaningful way? I'm not sure that he does. It's really more about him dealing with losing his brother.

... Shit, it really has been a while since I read that, apparently.

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No, Catcher in the Rye is totally a coming-of-age YA novel by modern standards. The meaning of the "catcher in the rye", after all, is a person who would save children from becoming adults.

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No, Catcher in the Rye is totally a coming-of-age YA novel by modern standards. The meaning of the "catcher in the rye", after all, is a person who would save children from becoming adults.

I think there's something else to being a YA novel than simply being a story about coming-of-age, else Great Expectations and David Copperfield are YA novels as well, and I'm not sure it makes sense classify them as such, though maybe it does. I dunno.

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Well, Charles Dickens was perhaps the most popular and mainstream author of his time...

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Well, the YA audience read/reads Catcher in the Rye on their own. I don't know if they'd willingly read Great Expectations.

I'd probably say it is anyway, but I also think categorization is kind of silly/pointless.

Dickens is an interesting example though. You could probably make the argument that Great Expectations was something like the Harry Potter of its time--immensely popular serialized coming-of-age story adopted by adults despite not being necessarily about them/their concerns.

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Well, Charles Dickens was perhaps the most popular and mainstream author of his time...

So now we're saying that Dickens isn't high brow enough...?

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Well, is it? I don't believe in the literature-genre-young adult etc. split. We know Dickens didn't write his books to be high brow. Are they just too good or too old to be labeled as young adult books? I think the labels are simply a value judgment.

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Well, is it? I don't believe in the literature-genre-young adult etc. split. We know Dickens didn't write his books to be high brow. Are they just too good or too old to be labeled as young adult books? I think the labels are simply a value judgment.

See, my thinking was that YA is a marketing label that is shorthand for "this novel will appeal to young adults" (which doesn't preclude it appealing to other audiences as well). The question to my mind isn't who Dickens was writing for how popular he was, but rather if you were marketing Great Expectations or David Copperfield as a brand new novel today, would you be better served by slapping the YA label on it or not? I'm not really sure. Certainly Charles Palliser's Quincunx (wikipedia, so spoilers, though highly recommended if you're a Dickens fan) has a lot of Dickensian bildungsroman about it, but it wasn't marketed as YA.

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Mmm, I don't know. Honestly, I didn't don't YA were such a big thing now.

Something else that occurred to me: if you're going to start labeling some books genre, 1984 would have to be classified as sci-fi (and therefore cannot have literary worth or enrich the human spirit or whatever).

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Am I the only one baffled by the youth fiction idea?

We are all smarter than normal people on here, so we're not the best sample for general population arguments, but I never really read youth fiction at all. Some of my fondest memories are of my mom and I reading Lord of the Rings out loud to each other when I was like 9. From there I just read what I liked, which tended more toward The Time Machine or Terminal Man. I don't really know what would qualify youth fiction.

That being said, is it a terrible thing that "normal" people of the general public are reading? That isn't usually the case. Even if it is garbage, isn't it good that people are forcing their imaginations to process someone else's thoughts into their own brains? Hopefully that will lead to more enriching reading experiences, but even if it doesn't at least there is an attempt at something other than reality TV.

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We are all smarter than normal people on here

Speak for yourself, nerd!

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nerds.jpg

Sorry. I don't really know if we qualify as smarter than other people, that's a pretty rough statement. Other than that, when I was a kid I lingered way longer than I probably should have in kid's books, simply because they had a sense of imagination and wonderment that I found lacking in (young) adult fiction.

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I will say I am beyond baffled at the response to The Hunger Games. I got through the first five chapters of it (thanks for the book for buying the Nook Color I guess, B&N) and saw where it was going, and wanted no part of it.

Thankfully, my sister lent me these books. I wish I had stopped only 5 chapters in, because it is predictable. I got to the 3rd book and couldn't make myself finish it. I see the draw for kids and adults alike, but after seeing many post-apocalyptic movies and playing similar style games, I have seen similar stories done far better.

I think the controversy of the kids killing kids was what got everyone all riled up.

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Did everyone willingly ignore the fact that he thinks adults should play video games, either?

Well there are very, very few games with actual adult sensibilities and he seems to explain his point rather clearly in the interview Ben posted:

I guess I’m arguing against flexibility. [Laughs.] Yeah, I’m definitely arguing against a flexible definition of adulthood. Obviously, there’s nothing wrong with reading the occasional young-adult novel. I read King Dork for work, and I thought it was pretty awesome. I guess Catcher In The Rye would now be called young-adult writing, and I would obviously think an adult should read that. But no, it’s part of the same reason I wrote the book, because I think there’s something to be gained from being a man and being an adult, and that if we wallow in our childhoods for the rest of our lives, we’re missing a lot. I’ve actually tried to transition myself out of rock music, to start listening to classical music. I think by not becoming an adult, that’s a lazy way of not fully enjoying or experiencing life. Like I won’t go see The Avengers. I don’t feel like, as an adult, I should be responsible for knowing the difference between The Hulk’s relationship to Thor and Captain America. I don’t feel like I should be having that discussion at dinner parties. "

I can see where he is coming from; you have a finite amount of time to spend on things you do, what would better serve me as a person? A good book or 12 hours of Team Fortress 2?

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I can see where he is coming from; you have a finite amount of time to spend on things you do, what would better serve me as a person? A good book or 12 hours of Team Fortress 2?

No contest: 12 hours of Team Fortress 2 could get you a sweet virtual hat!

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Oh CHRIST, not this person with his limiting and limited opinion again.

I don't think his opinion is particularly limiting. I think he is actually arguing for people expanding their horizons as they enter adulthood, rather than remaining mired in what really is a pretty limited range of adolescent culture that is increasingly marketed to every single age group.

In that AV Club interview, he also says:

AVC: But can’t people enjoy The Avengers one weekend, and then an arthouse film the next? It’s not either/or, is it?

JS: On some level it is. There’s that great David Foster Wallace commencement address about how, on some level, there is an either/or. You are choosing your input. It’s not bad to know about a bunch of different things, but every time you choose to know about one thing, you are choosing not to know about something else. It doesn’t mean I shouldn’t listen to any rock music, or I shouldn’t know about some young-adult novels. But especially with reading, I don’t read that many books a year, so I want to choose wisely. I would assume that a well-written book written for adults is going to be a richer experience than even the best-written book for young adults. And maybe there’re exceptions, but the impression I get is that the adults who are reading young-adult novels are reading a lot of them.

Ultimately I think that's pretty much true. The way marketing and culture currently work in our society means we're constantly bombarded with a very specific type and range of media, and to some degree I think it's worth taking a stand for another approach to culture and media. I think it's hard to really split one's time between them with any real amount of integrity. It's definitely hard for me. When you have a full time job and there's a practically infinite amount of stuff out there to consume, you really are experiencing one thing at the expense of experiencing something else.

And for what it's worth, I didn't choose to ignore the video game part. My feelings on games are really complicated and conflicted. I definitely feel that most of the games I play, even most of the ones with noble aspirations, don't really end up feeling as substantial to me as I wish they would. If I weren't already so immersed in games, I honestly don't know if I would be drawn to them fresh. That's obviously entirely hypothetical, since I AM already so connected to games and their industry. But if I meet someone who isn't already into games, I don't really recommend they try this or that, whereas I am much more likely to try and recommend a piece or writing or music or film to someone who might not be as tuned into whichever of those forms already.

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