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"Adults Should Read Adult Books" - Joel Stein

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I found Hitchhiker funny when I read it around the age of twenty, but it doesn't seem particularly great anymore. Maybe it's been 'done' to death? I don't know. Jokes can lose their punch if you've actively known and heard them for years.

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I know this is all highly subjective, and I don't claim any of this is automatically the case for any one given author. But having read a whole lot of various kinds of genre fiction during different stages of my life, it is part of why I have largely abandoned it.

Although I like literary stuff, I tend to favor things that stretch formal or structural bounds (charitably, read: experimentalism / uncharitably, read: self-indulgent gimmickry) so our tastes maybe don't particularly align, but on the topic of genre fiction that does things genre fiction typically doesn't do, have you read Dhalgren, House of Leaves, or The Raw Shark Texts?

edit: I probably have linked to this before, but the Tilda Swinton promo for The Raw Shark Texts blows me away.IGN.COM:

h73f3LWZALE

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The first Dirk Gently novel is the best thing Douglas Adams ever wrote.

I think an issue is that most literary fiction people read is much more cultivated than the genre fiction, which is generally consumed more haphazardly. There is a lot of trashy literary fiction that doesn't care about human concerns. There are less people who consume that stuff like geeky kids consume serial SF or fantasy, but those who do--mostly people within and around the publishing industry--have a disproportionate influence on what gets published, so it does exist in volume. Of course, that's becoming less true as publishers' discretion loses ground to "market realities".

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I think an issue is that most literary fiction people read is much more cultivated than the genre fiction, which is generally consumed more haphazardly. There is a lot of trashy literary fiction that doesn't care about human concerns. There are less people who consume that stuff like geeky kids consume serial SF or fantasy, but those who do--mostly people within and around the publishing industry--have a disproportionate influence on what gets published, so it does exist in volume. Of course, that's becoming less true as publishers' discretion loses ground to "market realities".

I'd go along with this. When I read literary fiction it tends to be things that are both somewhat older and very well known. Right now two of the books in my to-read list on my phone are the Brothers Karamazov and the fourth book in the Malazan Book of the Fallen series (a long-running fantasy novel series). I suspect that one will be more life-changing than the other, but it's not necessarily a fair comparison because the Malazan book is something I picked up based on a random recommendation from a friend when I was looking specifically for fantasy. By contrast, the Brothers Karamazov is something that has been mentioned to me at least half a dozen times by individuals or publications as one of the greatest books ever written.

I am definitely one of the people that reads literary fiction when it's accepted over a long period of time by many people to be really, really good, and that can definitely skew the perception of it. As you say, there are probably metric tons of literary fiction that are just as shallow and crap as the average book in any other type or genre.

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I think people should read whatever the hell they feel like reading.

I probably read "adult" books most of the time, but I also love the Harry Potter books and thoroughly enjoyed Hunger Games. Haven't read Twilight, and never will - but I don't necessarily hold it against people for liking these kind of things.

I think you need a mix. I love reading books that challenge me, or make me think, or present complex, rich worlds. Sometimes, though, I just want a fun ride.

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In Freedom, Franzen's powers of human observation are astonishing. That book genuinely affected the way I see other people and the world. There's a depth of humanity present in the work of a fiction writer like Franzen that I have rarely encountered in genre fiction--that's absolutely not to say it doesn't exist, but I don't think genre fiction writers treat it as their highest responsibility the same way literary fiction writers do.

Uhhh, OK? I read the "free sample" first chapters of Freedom and was horrified by the fact that the described character was a complete stereotype. Franzen was heaping on biographical detail and run-on sentences, but it was all in service of "LOL FAKE LIBERAL".

If it affected your worldview, Chris: good! It should! But Franzen started throwing in easy stereotypes in a way that made me distrust him to flesh things out later on if I decided to read the whole book.

Reading sucks! Down with bookcasts!

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The fact that this guy thinks animation or video games are strictly kids stuff means he can fuck off. He did specifically say, "Pixar movies" so maybe he's open to other animation, but eh.

He also wrote the book a book on masculinity, which to me means he has some major hang ups. Ad hominem or not this guy can just fuck off. Who really cares if an adult wants to check out Horton Hears a Who, which he admits is well crafted? If something is made well, people should check it out for it's merits, not specifically who it may be targeted at.

No newspaper that publishes this kind of throwaway church-lady trolling, proudly has Tom Friedman in its pages and produces hagiographic documercials about its own monolithic machismo (in the year 2012 as journalism itself seems to be circling the drain) should be allowed to matter. This may be WAY off-topic, but I feel we're talking about this link bait in the first place because it was published in the New York Times.

That's the end of the story to me, well said.

You could always be doing something more fulfilling. If he wants to say to me "why are you reading the Hunger Games when you could be reading something better?" (better being, as you say, an extremely difficult case to make and problematic term to use even if he had read the books.) I could just as simplistically reply "why are you reading at all when there are soup kitchens desperately in need of volunteers?"

It's basically just this thread again, although not from the amazing New York Times: http://www.idlethumbs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7654

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Uhhh, OK? I read the "free sample" first chapters of Freedom and was horrified by the fact that the described character was a complete stereotype. Franzen was heaping on biographical detail and run-on sentences, but it was all in service of "LOL FAKE LIBERAL".

If it affected your worldview, Chris: good! It should! But Franzen started throwing in easy stereotypes in a way that made me distrust him to flesh things out later on if I decided to read the whole book.

Reading sucks! Down with bookcasts!

I didn't perceive that character in the way you describe. I don't really remember specifically what aspects of his personality or history were described in whichever chapters would have been included in a free sample, but the notion of somebody who once held strongly liberal ideals that have in some ways atrophied through expedience or misguided intentions seems entirely plausible to me, whether or not it's a stereotype.

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Somehow this "you should only read literature" stance annoys me to no end. It dismisses such great works like Snowcrash, Nation or Neuromancer as being inferior and somehow lesser people.

Dismissing any book out of hand because it's has some kind of label or is currently popular is stupid and ignorant. Don't be such a snob and get of that high horse >:(

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Neuromancer generally gets counted as literature by the people who get to decide those things.

(though Gibson's writing being quite interesting formally, which probably is actually rarer among genre writers than "lit" writers, likely has a lot to do with that)

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I found Hitchhiker funny when I read it around the age of twenty, but it doesn't seem particularly great anymore. Maybe it's been 'done' to death? I don't know. Jokes can lose their punch if you've actively known and heard them for years.

I don't think it's just the jokes, but the subtle statements that Adams is making on humanity that make Hitchhiker's a timeless piece. Hell, they're not even always subtle -- there's a line, and I'm paraphrasing, wherein it's 'revealed' that "the president's job is not to yield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- I don't know, that's an obvious and not particularly great example, but people far more intelligent than I have dissected Adams' writing to find truly interesting statements about us.

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I don't think it's just the jokes, but the subtle statements that Adams is making on humanity that make Hitchhiker's a timeless piece. Hell, they're not even always subtle -- there's a line, and I'm paraphrasing, wherein it's 'revealed' that "the president's job is not to yield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- I don't know, that's an obvious and not particularly great example, but people far more intelligent than I have dissected Adams' writing to find truly interesting statements about us.

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is a masterpiece (at least the first two books). I don't understand how any could think otherwise, myself.

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This piece was one of only seven editorials published together on the topic of young adult fiction, and most of the pieces were positive. http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/03/28/the-power-of-young-adult-fiction

I know, I had skimmed through the rest of them. I didn't see twitter or anyone here talking at length about the other little articles tho. It is total linkbait with some plausible deniability thrown in for taste. Respectable publications have been doing desperate things as of late (see Forbes).

The New York Times didn't produce that documentary, and in fact gave it a negative review.

Way to ruin my fun jeremiad with facts. Jeez. Not cool. :getmecoat I haven't seen the movie, but I found the trailer off-putting. It is still propaganda for a certain ersatz objectivity which is increasingly becoming suspect.

Disagree with the content of the article itself. A publication you do not respect can publish a piece with which you agree, and a publication you respect can publish a piece you find unreasonable.

Sure. I still think a lot of the respect people have for the NYT and serious air that this piece is consuming is illegitimate. I mean, their ombudsman recently publicly wondered out loud and for real if it should be the job of the paper to correct mistakes and fix misconceptions—or if they should just plow over them as if everything is hunky dory. :buyme:

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Honestly, I could give a shit if someone wants to read Harry Potter or The Hunger Games. Who am I to dictate what tastes other people should have? Sure, it's not good intellectually for an adult to just read books for teenagers, but just having seen them reading it once tells me nothing about their habits overall. And even though I do think it would be better for people - myself included - to read more "grown-up" fiction, being a dick to them about it like this guy isn't going to help.

On the other hand, anyone reading Twilight should be ashamed of themselves, not because it's written for teenagers, but because it's poorly written garbage full of prose so purple it makes Prince look monochromatic.

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Honestly, I could give a shit if someone wants to read Harry Potter or The Hunger Games.

*Couldn't

Sorry, MAJOR pet peeve of mine.

On the whole, I agree with your point though. People should read the stuff aimed at them - if they're adults, read books aimed at adults - but it's perfectly valid to read other stuff.

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Ugh. I thought this thread had died. Since it hasn't, here's more 2c:

I'll bet you anything that those who believe adults should only read adult books are people who are perfectly happy and contented with their lives. Well, not perfectly happy, as nobody is perfectly happy. But I bet there's a direct correlation between escapism and unhappiness.

If escapism helps you get through some horrible real life shit, then why the fuck not? You can get around to reading about the dark meanderings of the soul when you're feeling further away from actual problems.

There's actually some science that supports my theory, too: Cognitive behavioural therapy has been repeatedly shown to be effective in helping depression, and the central tenant of that is, "you feel what you think".

If your mind is filled with negative thoughts, then reading something light and escapist can help you get out of that negative mindset, which will lighten your mood, which will help you deal with whatever real life problems your currently facing. In other words, it's perfectly normal and natural for people to use art in order to help and enhance their lives.

Anyways, as I said, Preston Sturges already made a pretty good argument for this in his movie "Sullivan's Travels".

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If your mind is filled with negative thoughts, then reading something light and escapist can help you get out of that negative mindset, which will lighten your mood, which will help you deal with whatever real life problems your currently facing. In other words, it's perfectly normal and natural for people to use art in order to help and enhance their lives.

This is also why I listen to happy music when I play Dota 2. That way, my frustration at people in the game is lessened considerably!

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What Joel Stein fails to realise is that people might be reading non-challenging books on planes because they're stressed out and want to relax. Likewise, I read book that can be enjoyed in small chunks when travelling to and from work.

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I can't read books on planes because I'm so tall I have to either bend my neck straight down or hold my arms up high enough to be aligned with my eyeballs. Man do I hate flying.

However, if I could, I would definitely not want to read anything super deep, for the exact reason Ben stated.

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Yep, that's actually the main reason for me, now that I think about it: I read to and from work.

Amd, of course, the idea of anyone agreeing with Joel Stein's argument on a video games forum would probably make him split blood.

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There's actually some science that supports my theory, too: Cognitive behavioural therapy has been repeatedly shown to be effective in helping depression, and the central tenant of that is, "you feel what you think".

If your mind is filled with negative thoughts, then reading something light and escapist can help you get out of that negative mindset, which will lighten your mood, which will help you deal with whatever real life problems your currently facing. In other words, it's perfectly normal and natural for people to use art in order to help and enhance their lives.

OT, but... I don't think cognitive therapy generally involves distracting yourself with pleasant fantasies. YMMV, though, I guess?

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OT, but... I don't think cognitive therapy generally involves distracting yourself with pleasant fantasies. YMMV, though, I guess?

No it doesn't, and I never said it did :hmph: I said breaking negative thought patterns might be also achieved by reading/watching escapism.

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The first time someone used "CBT" to mean cognitive behavioral therapy, I thought he was talking about cock and ball torture. That was a bit embarrassing.

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I'll bet you anything that those who believe adults should only read adult books are people who are perfectly happy and contented with their lives. Well, not perfectly happy, as nobody is perfectly happy. But I bet there's a direct correlation between escapism and unhappiness.

You could just as easily say the opposite. If you're so happy with your life why are you spending your time judging superficial aspects of the lives of those around you ("Ugh, that guy on the subway is reading THE HUNGER GAMES? Get a life dude!")?

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