Thrik

Prison Architect

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Sorry I don't know which voice is Mark Morris and which voice is Chris Delay.

I interpret the discussion they have around 7:00-9:25 as an enumeration of the systemic causes of the imbalanced violence, not systemic at the scope of how they have programmed the game personally, but systemic at the scope of how game-design in general has developed in such a way that violence is easier to express and therefore games are imbalanced towards it as a whole. I don't think they are using it as a justification for the game to represent prisoners as violent animals, I think it's an explanation of why this default occurs at an earlier stage of development. That is until one of them says dismissively that they are writing a game at 8:25. I think the other one is not so dismissive.

They seem to understand the criticism of having drug-crimes under-represented from 13:20-17:30, but by the end of that part they become distracted by the goal of modeling addiction (which would be great). I wonder if they will consider having a more realistic representation of the ratio of offenses in the U.S. On a related note, I think the question of how they should balance the races of the prisoners is interesting. If they simply make 40% of the prisoners black, then that doesn't communicate that it comes from a pool (outside of the prison) of which they represent only 12%. 

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I don't even understand Pedercini's argument about prison-labor, so I can't expect these guys to. 

 

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I am disappointed around 26:15 where they seem to be saying that they don't want the option to lobby for longer sentences because that would be too sinister. My hope was that they would include the sinister options that the american prison system currently uses in order to express the systemic reasons why these choices are made by those invested in prisons. I'd take it farther and say that you should have relationships with politicians and media in prison architect, and those relationships should have consequences if you give your prisoners playstations (even if it is a low-cost method of increasing civility).

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I still think the most troublesome thing as it pertains to gaming is how Prison Architect is still an early access game but seemingly not being treated as such. Especially as it pertains to this:

 

 

I'm in agreement that the third type of response is a bit shitty given what things they are regarding with "It's just a game, we won't do that." I still think the first two are fine, especially granted their early access status. Regardless of your opinion of what early access means, how it's being used liberally or how it's easily ignored, there's still something to be said when the developers clearly state it's an unfinished game and responses to constructive criticism are "we are or are going to integrate that into the final product".

 

That's completely fair, about early access, but for me this is not about an incomplete game being called incomplete, it is about an incomplete design philosophy being called incomplete. The game could be just a "rioting animals in boxes" simulator right now for all I care, but when they're dealing with something as fraught as the prison-industrial complex, which they themselves have acknowledged, every answer to Pedercini's critiques should be "We plan to address that and here's how" or "We don't plan to address that and here's why." They can bunt with a few "We hadn't thought of that," but the very concept of a "prison architect" game should demand substantial forethought and responsibility, especially considering that some of Pedercini's critiques come out of ten seconds of googling "prison system".

 

In short, I felt there was way too much "We're just making a game, does it really matter" and "We're just making a game, we'll make our own rules" for me to be comfortable, although as Clyde pointed out I can't tell them apart and one of the guys might be more dismissive than the other. I really don't know how much further I can argue that feeling, so it might just have to be a half-empty or half-full thing.

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I've heard people echo Pedercini's criticisms earlier too. I often hear a version of it that goes farther-- that rendering such a serious topic in a video game trivializes it, and that we shouldn't be making games about such serious topics.

 

First I'd like to address that wider argument (which Pedercini, to be clear, did not make) that says games should not wrestle with important topics, and that getting enjoyment out of running a prison makes you feel "dirty." Whether Prison Architect accurately portrays the problems of the prison system, I strongly disagree with the argument that games shouldn't dare wade into such important issues. If games aren't going to do it, and mass market movies won't, when will anyone be interested or care in them? Do we think that the novel has the potential to move us to care about issues like our unsanitary meat packing industry, but a game couldn't? I personally think that gaming's power to force a player to make decisions and become culpable in fantasy versions of real life hard choices is part of what can make it a very powerful medium for wrestling with real world societal problems. People should be concerned about the real people in prisons, and confronting them with the not great choices a prison manager has to make is in my opinion is a good thing. I'd also say that obviously a game about these topics isn't for everyone. But neither is a novel or documentary that tackles them. No one feels dirty watching or reading these-- no, they often feel empowered to vote or contact their representatives.

 

With that out of the way, I'll address PA's inaccuracies and Pedercini's criticisms. He's got a point. These are valid criticisms of the game. Of course, the game may need to be not fully realistic to make it interesting enough to play. It can still get its point across even if it is not completely accurate. Further, even with these inaccuracies I would submit that it's still a FAR more accurate portrayal of our prison system than most people realize or want to realize. Many prison systems are basically labor camps, and they become this way because of the horrible pressures put on prison managers-- lots of prisoners, mild offenses, low funding. In some ways, he is asking that the game give the player an option for what a prison system COULD BE or SHOULD BE, not the structural realities of today's prisons and the problems faced by real prison managers. Introversion also has to walk a line between making the game too realistic and dark and making it tolerable to play. If it does that, it hasn't been compromised, it has brought a lot of people to potentially care about the topic of prison reform than would have ever otherwise considered it.

 

If Prison Architect prompted Pedercini to write such a thoughtful article on prisons and post it to a gaming site, where hundreds of gamers that otherwise don't care about these issues will read it... I say that Prison Architect has done a huge service to us all. I hope more games that tackle serious topics will be made, not fewer. Even when inaccurate they further popular discourse of important issues we'd rather not think about. And that's what I really think is going on here. It's an uncomfortable subject we'd rather just ignore. To me, that is the weakest argument against games like Prison Architect. Not for everyone? Sure. Should be ignored? Certainly not.

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I wonder how much Prison Architect should reflect what prisons are compared to what they can be. By simulating what prisons currently are, the game might be seen as a rationalization of the status quo. If instead, reality's limitations are ignored within the game so that players can be a bit more experimental, then players might be dissappointed with the reality of prisons when compared to their own efforts in the simulation. I think that such a utopic expectation may be beneficial.

I guess that either way, the goal should be to create a convincing simulation of the circumstances so that players can begin to atleast think about them problems as plastic. Right now conversations about prisons seem to be either about how they are out of control and there is no stopping it, or how it's a necessary evil and can only exist the way it does currently.

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First I'd like to address that wider argument (which Pedercini, to be clear, did not make) that says games should not wrestle with important topics.

 

Pedericini, I think, is one of about three or four game developers that I literally cannot imagine saying that games should not wrestle with important topics. Like, I can imagine Steve Gaynor saying that; I don't think he would, but I'm capable of imagining it. Pedericini - Molleindustria - saying it is literally inconceivable. His work is a living refutation of the argument.

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There's a new alpha available. Considering the recent discussion about the game, I imagine the added feature is nothing short of a volatile topic: Armed guards.

Prettttty brutal...

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I was checking out the change logs the other day and was surprised by how much each version changes — from innumerable smaller adjustments to bigger things like the introduction of true terrain, lakes, forests, etc. I was kind of thinking it'd be like some other early access games I won't mention where development seems to be a crawl and the end game doesn't really end up being much different from the first alpha. Conversely, it looks like Prison Architect is legitimately transforming as it goes on.

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Pedericini, I think, is one of about three or four game developers that I literally cannot imagine saying that games should not wrestle with important topics. Like, I can imagine Steve Gaynor saying that; I don't think he would, but I'm capable of imagining it. Pedericini - Molleindustria - saying it is literally inconceivable. His work is a living refutation of the argument.

 

I feel like Molleindustria's games exist first and foremost to make some kind of specific political or artistic statement, and any actual game mechanics are designed around that. The impression that I get from the Prison Architect developers is kind of the opposite of that -- they're trying to design interesting systems, and depicting an accurate and/or politically-loaded prison is somewhat secondary. That's not to say they're not giving any consideration to the social implications, but I don't think that those have ever been the focus. I think that what Pedercini wants from the game is very different from what Introversion wants it to be. (And personally I'd be a lot less interested in playing Pedercini's version.)

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@Shammack

I saw that you really enjoyed Papers Please which I enjoyed for Pedercini-esque reasons (observing how a systemic circumstance can form behavior in a game and then applying the observation to deep reality). Did you have a similar reason for enjoying it? If so, then how does your form of appreciation differ between Papers Please and Prison Architect?

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There has been two updates since the last post in this thread.

added tazers, longer/more advanced production chain for lumber and most importantly education and reform programs.

 

Now your prisoners need to be educated in hygiene and workshop safety before they can work in the kitchen or operate heavy machinery. Your prisoners also volunteer for these training programs, so getting a fully populated maximum size workshop is no longer just a matter of building it and clicking 20 times to deploy workers. There's behavioural therapy that can apparently make a prisoner less violent, but it takes much longer than the simple safety and hygiene programs, and is less likely to produce positive results. Then there are foundation and general education programs that don't yet have any gameplay benefits, but I still like to run them.

 

While your prisoners are taking part in education, three factors effect their chance of passing. First, they of course need to attend the classes. Second, is understanding, which depends on the prisoner in question. Finally is the prisoner's concentration. The better a prisoner's needs are met, the better their concentration will be, and the better the education will take. Prisoners in poor conditions or being constantly suppressed are not very likely to pass their classes.

 

The most recent update, Alpha 19, makes lots of changes and additions to the financial system of the game. For all the minutia, I'd recommend you watch the video below. My favourite addition from the gameplay perspective are the new grants. I just tried doing the Inmate Nutrition Research, where you have to give your prisoners one poor meal and three good meals for two day periods. The former resulted in the biggest riot I've ever had. 18 deaths, almost every prisoner in the entire prison at least mildly wounded and it took three squads of riot police to bring the situation under control. The best part is, I apparently did something wrong, because the objective didn't register as completed after two days. So I'll have to try it again, I'll be sure to research tazers before that.

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Alpha 20! Also, Prison Architect is on sale on Steam for -66%, which is about 8,8€. Now is the best time yet to buy this game.

 

Things added in this Alpha are a grading system and actual failure states. Uncontrollable riots, financial failure and too many deaths or escapes can lead to you being removed from your prison manager position. Some cases, like the uncontrolled riot, can lead to the national guard rolling in to retake the prison. Lots of deaths and criminal negligence can cause you to get to experience your prison first hand (see video).

 

Grading happens by evaluating the prisoners that have been released. Data like the severity of punishment, amount of reform programs and the amount of danger the prisoner has been in during their stay in your prison is now collected and compiled to give an estimated reoffending chance for the released prisoner. Your prison is then graded based on the average stats of the released prisoners.

 

Here's the Alpha update video. I could listen to these guys talk for hours.

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That's a shame, since there was still about 25 minutes of the video left. Then again, I don't think they're going to do anything that would make the game more appealing to you. They're probably not going to rename it The American Detention Center Simulator and fix the US prison system on the side.

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No, they named it Prison Architect and decided to support its current state.

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So, I got this game and man is that introduction tutorial sequence goddamn depressing. I'm not super jazzed to play the game after that, frankly.

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Same here...

I got this from the latest Humble Bundle and... I couldn't play it... It just felt wrong to slowly build an execution chamber in the tutorial. This game is too depressing to play.

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Yeah, the tutorial sequence is pretty rough and I have no idea why they use that to sell you on the game, but the main part of the game only really includes that level of depressing if you want it. I'm far from a PA expert, but the prison can be designed in a lot more ways that the massive cell-blocks they use in their videos. I'm fond of a disconnected sort of thing, with the canteen and showers and the offices and storage in their own buildings, and the prisoners in 6-man bungalow type things. Like a summer camp prison. They make crafts (licence plates). Been a while since I've played though.

I wish the game wasn't so off-putting to most people, I think it has some of the best 'base building' tools and flow I've ever seen. The planning tool is a particularly neat thing I haven't seen elsewhere. Mostly I'll put up with a lot for a decent dwarf fortress like game I can actually play.

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The mechanics have gotten better and for all the types of games out there trying to do the same thing, PA is probably the most successful at doing it.

 

It is a shame though they decided to go for the theme that they did, it's almost irrelevant since you could easily replace the language and art with little dwarves or whatever, but just the context in which they want to frame their game has never capture my imagination or attention for long.

 

I'm glad they didn't continue/add to their presentation/story telling style of the tutorial as it was immediately a turn off, but at the end of the day, I can't get over the theme, it's not a world I want to escape to for long periods of time like I can with other games of the genre.

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I've been playing this a bunch since getting it in the most recent bundle; I gotta re-iterate what everyone is saying here.

 

The tutorial is super depressing, and the theme in general is pretty sobering. But the game itself is simply the best in its class. The building tools, the employee deployment system, how rooms and room-requirements are defined, scheduling, the "grants" system that adds some much-appreciated structure to the first few playthroughs, the sandbox freedom perfectly balanced with goals/failure conditions ... everything really. Everything is excellent except, somewhat, the depressing setting.

 

The worst parts of the game by far are the little prisoner bios that I think were written by Kickstarter backers. Completely tone-deaf. The game is good enough that I've trained myself to ignore them.

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I have no idea when to actually try games like this anymore. Prison Architect has been on Steam Early Access for two years now. At what point is it finished enough to really get in to it? I was having this same problem with Planetary Annihilation, and now that it's technically released people are saying it still seems like a beta at best.

 

Does anyone have an assessment on whether to wait or go for Prison Architect? Or the other game with the same initials?

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The current Humble Bundle includes it at $10.  If there are other games in the bundle that you want, then I'd say pick up Prison Architect now.  I've waited on buying it due to it's Early Access state, and some thematic concerns.  But getting it in that bundle made it worth it to me to try finally. 

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There's a lot of meat on the current build of Prison Architect; it feels like a full game, even though I have no idea how "done" it actually is. I think it's at a point where you'll enjoy it (if you're ever going to).

 

Conversely, I tried Spacebase DS-9 on, like, patch 2 or something, and it was clearly way too early.

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Following the development and knowing Introversion makes me iffy on the word "done". This sort of game usually does better with updates after whatever release version there is, and listening to the devs talk makes it seem like they still have a whole lot of ideas they want to try out. I feel like PA is at a safe place to start playing by now. It's pretty content-complete and I've never encountered a single problem with it either. 

The fledgling mod scene has access to better tools and such now I believe, perhaps something from there could reskin it in a less objectionable way? I am usually playing pretend summer camp anyway.

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Pretty much the same game but a boarding school or a summer camp would be AMAZING.

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