Brannigan

DOTA 2

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Moving isn't enough by itself, you need to gain some exp every 5 minutes or you get an abandon.

Whatever it is they do then. I don't have time to watch other people when I'm playing a match.

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Yeah being pedantic about it doesn't really help all that much. They still for all intents and purposes AFK for the rest of the match.

 

I mean shit I've done it before in the worst of games. But... so are the people I'm playing with, so I don't have to feel too bad. Though I do often do it alone at the very end when it's looking like we're about to get fountain camped, which happens in over half my losses, no joke, no exaggeration, I've kept a tally across the span of a couple weeks. It's not terrible when they actually kill the T4s beforehand, but that's almost never done. Anyway, I TP out to one of the little buildings just outside the base if it exists and smoke to the enemy jungle and farm so I wont' get an abandon while they stand outside the fountain and shove their shit down everyone else's throats.

 

It's definitely fun and we always feel like we have a chance of making a comeback.

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I'm sorry if I came across as pedantic, I just thought it might help someone who is camping an ancient against a backdooring enemy furion or something.

 

Half your loses still seems like an exaggeration.

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Just stop. Eric Johnson said Valve will never introduce a surrender option. 

 

Here is some shit he said in PCGamer a year ago or so. 

 

87NTMsC.png

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half sounds about right to me, but i only play public mm, usually with a 5-group (so the other team is no less than 2-pair or a 3-team).

 

Additionally, there is a tendency even when sitting in the well one guy decides to go out and snipe a final kill or muck up the push by pulling the creeps to the fountain.  I am normally of the mind to finish fast - but once someone pops out i dont mind putting an upgraded lich chain in there to bounce around. 

 

And what really grinds my gears - people who pause / fortify with 200 health on the throne.

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It doesn't matter what Erik Johnson says. Embracing flawed logic doesn't make you right. It just makes you wrong together.

Also Jutranjo I literally said in my post that it was not an exaggeration. It's right there. In the post. Read it.

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The other option is to not play matchmaking and just play inhouse leagues.  I don't know what the best public ones are, I think Team Liquid might have one, but if you do that you can just gg as well as benefit from the other things that come along with organized play/not using matchmaking.  I would say the significant majority of the dota I've played at this point, both Dota 2 and WC3, has been inhouse leagues.  I have almost 3,000 hours played and only a little over 600 regular matches.

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I don't know what's happening with my account, but I only see nasty games like are described here maybe 1/10 of my games, probably less. I queue almost exclusively alone and all-pick.

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It doesn't matter what Erik Johnson says. Embracing flawed logic doesn't make you right. It just makes you wrong together.

Also Jutranjo I literally said in my post that it was not an exaggeration. It's right there. In the post. Read it.

 

There's no way half your game losses end with the enemy team fountain camping you.

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I don't know what to tell you man. That's how it goes down.

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I don't know what's happening with my account, but I only see nasty games like are described here maybe 1/10 of my games, probably less. I queue almost exclusively alone and all-pick.

Yeah I would say it's probably around 10% or less for me too that people try and fountain camp. I do solo queue all pick as well.

I also had a 80 minute game the other day and it made me realize that I haven't had an amazing comeback game in a long time, probably well over a year, that wasn't directly related to poor play both in terms of how we catch up and why we're behind to begin with. It almost feels worse than losing because it's so undeserved and unrewarding.

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half sounds about right to me, but i only play public mm, usually with a 5-group (so the other team is no less than 2-pair or a 3-team).

The other option is to not play matchmaking and just play inhouse leagues. I don't know what the best public ones are, I think Team Liquid might have one, but if you do that you can just gg as well as benefit from the other things that come along with organized play/not using matchmaking. I would say the significant majority of the dota I've played at this point, both Dota 2 and WC3, has been inhouse leagues. I have almost 3,000 hours played and only a little over 600 regular matches.

Though I don't play nearly enough to gather a reliable crew, I definitely think this is the right way to play. Dota is a team sport and is best served by this mindset (both by the players and the developers), and "fixing" the problems that come from mming with randos with a surrender button undermines that. Besides, there are Lords Managements with surrender mechanics out there so, if that lack is a deal breaker, you have options.

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That's boring. If we're going to reiterate an argument we've had a million times

Consider not having it then? There's so much cooler stuff to talk about. Like Junior Mints' girlfriend's time with the dotes:

http://kotaku.com/my-first-63-hours-with-dota-2-1599236453

http://kotaku.com/93-hours-in-im-still-not-sure-if-dota-2-is-fun-1611226542

I love these so much!

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Though I don't play nearly enough to gather a reliable crew, I definitely think this is the right way to play. Dota is a team sport and is best served by this mindset (both by the players and the developers), and "fixing" the problems that come from mming with randos with a surrender button undermines that. Besides, there are Lords Managements with surrender mechanics out there so, if that lack is a deal breaker, you have options.

 

Honestly, the easiest way any game can convince me that it's not worth investing my time in multiplayer is for it to be designed entirely around the assumption that I'll always have a stable of friends ready to play with me at all times. I don't see how having a professional scene and declaring itself a "sport" exempts Dota 2 from the shit I give Assassin's Creed: Unity for making the same assumption.

 

If preset teams don't need a surrender option, that's fine. Just make it available to all-random games. To use the sports analogy, if I'm playing a pick-up game of touch football in the park with some strangers and we're getting destroyed, there would be zero issue with my whole team getting together, deciding to forfeit, and the other team taking the win. It certainly wouldn't make us less desirable to play with the next time a game happened. My university's intramural kickball league also has a mandatory "surrender" scenario if a team maintains a ten-run lead for a whole inning. These are natural concessions to the logistics of playing any sport in a widespread and casual fashion, rather than everyone pretending they're in the running for the World Cup or the World Series.

 

Then again, I know of no one who enjoys just dismantling the other team past the point of good taste in real-life sports. Such a person would be a psycho, but on the internet, some people are just dying to feel the power...

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The similarity between dota and AC:Unity is that you play both on a PC with a keyboard and mouse. There's no overlap in the philosophy behind it's multiplayer.

 

The easiest way to make games not enjoyable is to only play the first twenty minutes, ocassionaly getting to late game. It's hard as is to make 5 random players strive for victory, giving them an option to just say fuck it makes it way harder to motivate them.

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had a random PA in my group yesterday that did his own concede - quelling bladed deep to the trees and sat around the last 10-15 minutes

 

some bad team fights & the impending train of a naga siren really put the pressure to break a side or two...but couldnt clear a rax.  then lumberjack took off and we didnt have a chance.  obviously the team comp wasnt good, but still could have won if we had a leash/coordination with that PA.

 

he was strange too - would save up ~3-4k gold and buy a full item out right rather than in parts (had all this money, thought was getting butterfly etc, buys bkb. gets another 3k...buys helm of dominator).  the ultra passive abaddon build didnt help either (http://tinyurl.com/qz6ujkj)

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Consider not having it then?

I'm not the one who started the argument. Perhaps you should consider not caring so much!

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The similarity between dota and AC:Unity is that you play both on a PC with a keyboard and mouse. There's no overlap in the philosophy behind it's multiplayer.

 

The easiest way to make games not enjoyable is to only play the first twenty minutes, ocassionaly getting to late game. It's hard as is to make 5 random players strive for victory, giving them an option to just say fuck it makes it way harder to motivate them.

 

... Except for the implicit assumption that most people will be playing multiplayer with their friends and that the game should be tuned for that. Did you read my post?

 

Okay, several things and then I'm done:

  • You have no evidence that players will do a surrender vote the moment the tide turns. It's purely your assumption, which says more about you than any other player. Anecdotal accounts from other people on this forum who play other LoMa games with surrender options say that player behavior is not noticeably different with or without it.
  • People say fuck it all the time already. It's not like the absence of a surrender option turns a dude who says it's over after five minutes and goes creeping in some deserted corner into a hard-fighting hard-winning player. If Valve is hoping to motivate their players to become better by trapping them in losing games with no hope of recovery, then they've failed and no surprise, because it's bad design.
  • Multiple people have said that the game's meant to be played with preset teams, so maybe the solution to playing with unmotivated players is to play with your friends instead and meanwhile let me have the option to get out of a truly terrible game every once in a while.
  • And really, why should I have to keep playing a game that I think is over and that I'm not enjoying anymore, just for someone else's rocks and the vague philosophy that giving me the choice is a slippery slope? You guys know it's a game, right? Other "serious" games like Counter-Strike let me quit when I'm tired of losing with my team of pub assholes, why shouldn't Dota 2, so long as appropriate measures are taken to keep it from becoming a tool for trolls.

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To be fair, Unity's multiplayer is not the core experience. I'm fairly certain it's a separate bit of stuff, and there's still the usual single-player AC game in there. Unless I'm wrong! My point being that I'm not sure the comparison holds, as if you don't want to play the multiplayer stuff, you have something to fall back on. There's no single-player Dota! Although whenever they release their custom map tools, I have some ideas I'd like to try out. X:

 

It's possible I completely misunderstood the intent of the comparison, because I am a dumb person!

That said, Gormongous is right about everything else!

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To be fair, Unity's multiplayer is not the core experience. I'm fairly certain it's a separate bit of stuff, and there's still the usual single-player AC game in there. Unless I'm wrong! My point being that I'm not sure the comparison holds, as if you don't want to play the multiplayer stuff, you have something to fall back on. There's no single-player Dota! Although whenever they release their custom map tools, I have some ideas I'd like to try out. X:

 

It's possible I completely misunderstood the intent of the comparison, because I am a dumb person!

That said, Gormongous is right about everything else!

 

Eh, the point of my comparison was really just that games likw AC:U tend to get shit for the design assumption that people using their multiplayer component will have a large and ready pool of friends, but somehow not Dota 2 because it's only a multiplayer component and also a "sport," which seems increasingly to be a catch-all for explaining why bad design is really okay. There's no need to pursue it beyond that observation.

 

I'm really just confused by people's arguments about how LoMas are "meant" to be played. If we're talking purism, they're meant to be played in Warcraft 3's crappy "custom game" interface, and good luck getting two teams of five into one of those intact!

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Okay I understand now, and yes that is an apt comparison. I'LL ALLOW IT!

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I guess my default assumption when you play dota in solo matchmaking is that your only common goal with the other 4 people on the team is to win the match. It's a team based multiplayer game. Counter strike prevents you from finding a ranked match for 24 hours if you leave one.

 

I don't see how AC:U and dota2 are similar. You can play dota fine when solo in matchmaking. You can play with friends too, and like most things you do with friends, it's better than doing it with randomly chosen people. Apparently to play AC you need to have friends added and then invite them to join you to even play multiplayer.

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Does it punish you from unranked matchmaking? Or does it have unranked matchmaking?

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