Brannigan

DOTA 2

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I swing back and forth on whether I want to play Dota 2 constantly. I don't have an invite, as far as I know, so it's pretty much a moot point either way but I still think about it.

There are things I like the sound of, such as the greater reward because of more skill involvement. But there are also a lot of things I don't really like the sound of.

I don't like the denial mechanic flat out. The idea that your characters are so very prescribed by what the other team is doing also troubles me - LoL has already become a place where picking champions that aren't high in the current metagame is viewed as stupid, if not outright aggressive to your own team... I don't really want to go somewhere that's pushing that attitude even further.

Additionally, while a more cautious playstyle probably wouldn't be a problem for me (I'm one of the most cautious of my friends that play LoL and consistently have the least deaths among them), I don't know if I consider it a better design philosophy overall. I quite like seeing other people do crazy, reckless shit and have it pay off, even if I don't often do it myself.

Finally, one of the things that I've heard about Dota that worries me the most is that the word "carry" actually has real weight. It sort of does in LoL, and you generally need to have at least one serious AP damage dealer and one serious AD damage dealer, but the majority of games do not end up with one person being an absolute teamkiller. You will often get team strength weighted towards one or two individuals, but it's rare that someone actually "carries" a game, at least until you get to the professional level. I don't really want to go to Dota and find that, unless I'm playing a specific kind of character, my job is mostly to feed someone else on my team and hope they take us to victory.

Please correct any inaccurate assumptions, as I genuinely want to be optimistic about the game.

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Akali isn't OP at the moment.

Bullshit, they haven't touched her in forty patches. (...Have they her touched in the last two months?)

@Gwardinen: Most of your assumptions are correct. I will still never believe the "you shouldn't be killing your own units" argument but whatever.

My recommendation on the carry front would be wait until the game actually launches, or at least until the addition of RD, or Random Draft. Random Draft picks 22 heroes from the entire pool, and allows you to pick from them in an order similar to Captains Mode. 1-2-2-1-2 or whatever.

The biggest problem with the DotA 2 beta currently is that a sort of picking Cold War occurs every time you play AP. Because you can wait until several seconds after the game has started to lock in a hero, people just wait to see what the enemy team picks and the counter-picks everything the enemy chooses. It's bullshit, and it's tiresome, and if you don't want to see carries wrecking entire teams because the other team was completely outpicked, don't play DotA 2 right now.

The idea that LoL doesn't have carries is amusing. (What I'm saying is Ability Power is stupid. Annnnyway!)

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Bullshit, they haven't touched her in forty patches. (...Have they her touched in the last two months?)

She got nerfed in November.

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Praise baby jesus. She's had that coming for years.

Shame I'll never play it again.

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People are more cautious in Dota 2 because the risks are much greater. But that also means the rewards are similarly greater, as you can really destroy the enemy with the right kind of risk.

Also, Dota 2 is just much more intense, in general. Early game is much less boring - ganking is a thing that happens more often. Etc.

DOTA IS BETTER NYAH NYAH

People really exaggerate the whole "carry" thing. Yes, you need a good carry to do well and win. You also need a good support and a good mid ganker. Mid usually ganks, anyway. Not always.

Team makeup in Dota is so much more varied, too! You can really mix things up from one game to another.

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@Gwardinen: Most of your assumptions are correct. I will still never believe the "you shouldn't be killing your own units" argument but whatever.

My recommendation on the carry front would be wait until the game actually launches, or at least until the addition of RD, or Random Draft. Random Draft picks 22 heroes from the entire pool, and allows you to pick from them in an order similar to Captains Mode. 1-2-2-1-2 or whatever.

The biggest problem with the DotA 2 beta currently is that a sort of picking Cold War occurs every time you play AP. Because you can wait until several seconds after the game has started to lock in a hero, people just wait to see what the enemy team picks and the counter-picks everything the enemy chooses. It's bullshit, and it's tiresome, and if you don't want to see carries wrecking entire teams because the other team was completely outpicked, don't play DotA 2 right now.

The idea that LoL doesn't have carries is amusing. (What I'm saying is Ability Power is stupid. Annnnyway!)

That's not really the argument I'm making about denial. I mean, yeah, if you think about it it is a little weird but there's plenty of stuff about Dota-inspired games that is weird - why is it only the last person to hit something that gets gold anyway? It ends up being easier if you just think of the game as a series of abstractions to lend themselves to a sport environment. LoL actually makes this a little easier since its lore is basically that it is a sport that determines political disputes. The idea of that being how the real world is run still amuses me, but doesn't seem totally unrealistic some days.

My issue with denial is just that I don't enjoy it. There's no grand design critique here, I just don't find it interesting. I only just about find last hitting acceptable as a mechanic to keep me engaged while manoeuvring to fight enemy champions, throwing denial in just swings it a little into the "I don't really want to be performing this action" zone.

That picking cold war thing sounds like a nightmare to me and will probably mean I won't play the beta, even if I get an invite. I've already pretty much given up on draft pick for LoL, as it tends to constrain the champions that are picked and just generally lead to even less variation in the metagame. Blind pick does end up with you just getting stomped by a better team composition you never had a chance to see sometimes, but at least there's the occasional weird set of champions that ends up being entertaining.

As for LoL and carries, I said in my post that it happens sometimes, but outside of the top tiers it is only sometimes. Again, while I acknowledge the flaws in LoL, I don't really want to go from there sometimes being a situation that bothers me to that situation being a codified part of the metagame. That's kind of the opposite direction.

As I write this post I think more and more that what I probably want is something that is more a game than a sport. The professional level of these products is something that, in the end, only holds occasional appeal for me. I want it to be both interesting and entertaining for me and my friends on our mid tier level, and I want there to be variation and not-entirely-efficient shit going on. I already get disappointed in those desires in LoL a fair amount of the time, meanwhile it kinda seems like Dota is built around the opposite. That's fine, but I've probably just talked myself out of it as being a game for me.

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Seriously, if you want more variety then you should be playing Dota over LoL.

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Su-...support Akali?

No, i was against an akali, I was playing Taric, I shut her down early on by carrying an oracle's around once we won bottom lane and I was wandering.

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Gwardinen, I have two main problems with your argument;

1. Carries are the same basic concept in LOL and Dota. It doesn't mean a character that can 1v5 a team, the carries are just the people who have priority on the gold because they get more powerful with more gold instead of just with more levels.

Its actually interesting because though gold may be spread out a bit more evenly in league of legends, the structure of where to send the carries and how to structure the lanes is much more rigid. It is almost always AP carry mid/AD carry bottom with a babysitter/Tanky lane sustainer top/Jungler as the main ganker. In Dota you can have somebody in any role and in any lane with carry potential, you can have hard carries that sit in the safe lane and just farm up the whole game, you can have gankers that go mid and carry by shutting down the other team, you can have a carry be the jungler, you can have carries that just sit in the dangerous lane and start to build up after your other lanes start pushing in.

I honestly saw far more "Carries" as you described them (characters that can solo an entire team) in LoL and far more consistently. Any game with a good Anivia, Annie, Brand, Karthus, Caitlyn, Nasus, Ryze, and tons more tbh would have that kind of stuff happening. In Dota, outside of complete and utter stomps, the only time somebody can ever carry that hard is when you have a Spectre that has complete freefarm and their team manages to hold their own otherwise, because when you fight a farmed spectre your team effectively kills themselves in order to get that kill.

2. The efficiency argument. LoL is ALL about efficiency. Since every character can easily just spam spells to get all their gold, and you never lose gold, 90% of characters just build up to the same items because they are the most efficient and tested ways to build up either ad or ap characters. You never compromise and build mid-tier items, you never save up for something thats so big that you are vulnerable while you are trying to make it, and you never rush a weaker item in order to have an early game advantage. In Dota I can't say there are more than two items that are regularly seen on any significant grouping or character type. Branches and Boots, and they are both starting items. Otherwise depending on your role, lane position, opponents, you can come up with so many different viable item builds that all allow you to play in a different way.

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Until the last 6 months carries usually were the mids in LoL, people changed after they saw some tourney guys running AP mids. There are other characters that work in mid it's just that people adamantly stick to what's cool usually.

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...people changed after they saw some tourney guys running AP mids.

Also this bullshit. High-profile "pro" tournament in LoL this week? You better believe the meta-game is going to jump all over the place for the next couple of days while people copy the exact builds used from the winning games. What horseshit.

I should really try and contain all this vitriol about LoL, but going back to DotA has just blown the doors off LoL for me. I feel like an asshole for calling it "babies first DotA" but I mean really, godsdamn. Admittedly, the ratio of interesting people I've met in LoL vs DotA is pretty crazy, but we'll see where that goes from launch.

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I enjoy both really. On the copying builds bit, it always makes me laugh when people try to copy Revive Karthus and be completely terrible with it.

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This is because Revive Karthus is a terrible build. :oldman:

The best Karthus build I ever found was;

- Boots 3

- The rod that builds stats over time, I've forgotten the name

- Warmogs

- If you have the money and time for some reason, Hat

It's depressing how well it works.

Note: The reason I say, if you have the money, is if you have significant money you're either A. Killstealing, or B. Carrying with Karthus. Both of these situations indicate someone, somewhere in your game, is functionally retarded. Which team that/those people is on is largely dissatisfactory in either case.

Edited by Orvidos

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Gwardinen, I have two main problems with your argument;

1. Carries are the same basic concept in LOL and Dota. It doesn't mean a character that can 1v5 a team, the carries are just the people who have priority on the gold because they get more powerful with more gold instead of just with more levels.

Its actually interesting because though gold may be spread out a bit more evenly in league of legends, the structure of where to send the carries and how to structure the lanes is much more rigid. It is almost always AP carry mid/AD carry bottom with a babysitter/Tanky lane sustainer top/Jungler as the main ganker. In Dota you can have somebody in any role and in any lane with carry potential, you can have hard carries that sit in the safe lane and just farm up the whole game, you can have gankers that go mid and carry by shutting down the other team, you can have a carry be the jungler, you can have carries that just sit in the dangerous lane and start to build up after your other lanes start pushing in.

I honestly saw far more "Carries" as you described them (characters that can solo an entire team) in LoL and far more consistently. Any game with a good Anivia, Annie, Brand, Karthus, Caitlyn, Nasus, Ryze, and tons more tbh would have that kind of stuff happening. In Dota, outside of complete and utter stomps, the only time somebody can ever carry that hard is when you have a Spectre that has complete freefarm and their team manages to hold their own otherwise, because when you fight a farmed spectre your team effectively kills themselves in order to get that kill.

2. The efficiency argument. LoL is ALL about efficiency. Since every character can easily just spam spells to get all their gold, and you never lose gold, 90% of characters just build up to the same items because they are the most efficient and tested ways to build up either ad or ap characters. You never compromise and build mid-tier items, you never save up for something thats so big that you are vulnerable while you are trying to make it, and you never rush a weaker item in order to have an early game advantage. In Dota I can't say there are more than two items that are regularly seen on any significant grouping or character type. Branches and Boots, and they are both starting items. Otherwise depending on your role, lane position, opponents, you can come up with so many different viable item builds that all allow you to play in a different way.

As for carries, I'm encouraged to hear what you're saying. I definitely don't see hard carrying as much in LoL as you're implying, but when I do it depresses me. I was under the impression that Dota is much more built around making sure one person on your team becomes a carry, and if that's not the case I'm glad.

Efficiency... eh, I dunno. I'm not really sure where I stand on what you're saying there. The idea of much more variable item builds interests me, but on the other hand the idea that in general you're going to get much less gold doesn't. My favourite games are those that are balanced by making everyone cool, a la TF2 for example. I don't particularly like the idea that I would ever feel like I just don't have enough gold to get the things I want, and it clashes with what was said earlier about everyone in the game being lethal.

Actually my greater issue with "efficiency" will probably just be the UI and that kind of stuff. I just listened to the Thumbs Dota progresscast last night, and there were some good points made about how weird it is to have so much stuff in the game still be based around the daft workarounds that the original mod had to use because it was in an engine not designed for what it was doing. The fact that Famous spent 20 minutes trying to figure out how to use the mule (and the videos I've seen about it are fucking confusing too) is kind of an indictment all on its own. Hopefully Valve's plans for the learning/teaching aspects of the game will pan out.

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Well, there's two sides to the UI coin, one of which requires me to insult our great lords and masters, so here we go.

- Yeah, the current UI is needlessly bulky, if admittedly slick and goodlooking. If this is changed (there is no reason to believe it won't be) it will be later in the beta cycle. Valve is all about adding heroes and balancing them at Icefrogs right hand right now. Once all the heroes and mechanics are in, the work of making DotA 2 more than a remake can begin.

- Sorry Sean, if it took you twenty minutes to work out the courier interface, I have nothing to say on the matter other than, what? :eek: The interface is fairly simple. There's four buttons of interest in a courier hotbar;

- Retrieve Items From Stash

- Return Items To Stash

- Transfer Items to Hero

- Speed Boost

These are all relatively self-explanatory and you should be able to pick them up in a matter of a couple minutes of putzing around. Now if you had problems figuring out courier logistics, and getting used to using it when needed, then sure. Hell it took me a solid two weeks of being back in the game to return to using the courier instead of running back to base.

As for the less gold problem, play Easy Mode. Less health on towers, more gold per tick and from kills/creeps. You're also a terrible person as a result, but whatever. :mock:

Edit: Listening to the cast, uh. Well. I'm the "Jesus christ you incompetent fucks" guy. I'm sorry. :getmecoat

Edit: Scrolling podcast thoughts.

- I (and I imagine Twig and Nob and others) would be happy to teach any of you guys about video games. Specifically this video game. I'm unnaturally patient if you're playing a new hero/new to the game so don't worry about it.

- Man, Lich. Good choice. He's basically the "Who do I play first!?" bread and butter response. He doesn't require any items to function, making him farm agnostic. While a couple bracers will help (under Upgrades, Common) they aren't necessary. You should be warding whenever possible however, as chances at low skill levels you're the only person that's not some kind of carry. Observer wards, not sentry.

The most prevalent ward spots are on these hills (if this is too small I can link you a full warding guide):

Q3Akr.png

Because wards have a cast range, you can walk up to these hills (they're fairly raised cliffs in-game) and place them on top, giving you enormous Line of Sight. Valve also recently placed little freaky Eye of Sauron symbols on two of those spots, painted in white, in order to facilitate learning these spots.

Comedy Lich build: Aghanim's Scepter, Refresher Orb, Blink Dagger

Could this be your Lich line? http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/d/d6/Lich_lasthit_08.mp3

If not, here's a handy link: http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Lich_responses

(There is a page for every hero, if you find someones voice you really like.)

Fun fact, Lich is voiced by the guy who does the Heavy, and the Demoman.

- As someone in the cast comments said, Rubrick steals any spell you last cast, allowing him to cast it as well. He's pretty crazy.

- Er, about DotACinema. I played against the guy, early in the beta, and he's an incredible jackass. At least one of their people is, anyway. That said, other than the category "whispers" their videos seem pretty high quality in learning the game. Go wild.

- DotA 2 Wiki

- Heroes Currently In DotA 2

- PlayDotA (for anything not yet in DotA 2)

- Being aware of your failures make you better than 70% of people playing DotA-like games.

Like I said, I'd be happy to point anything you want out. Hit me on Steam (should be in the Steam ID thread) or post a replay ID up here and I'll tell you what I can.

I eagerly await the addition of Techies so I can have my gimmick multicolored midget team comp. (Sniper, Tinker, Clockwerk, Alchemist, Techies)

Edited by Orvidos

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I actually do agree that the LoL UI is a bit friendlier, mostly in the store bit. Other than that though they're not all that different.

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I actually prefer the Dota 2 store to the LoL store because I can jsut search for any item I'd want and it pops up instantly. Also, the new grid setup is fuckin' boss. I know what all the icons mean, so I don't need the text!

And yeah I'd happily teach anyone how to play. n0b and I have introduced more than one dude to the game of Dota, and about half the time they go on to love the game, so I imagine we're not completely terrible at it!

I always hate recommending Lich to new players. Yes, he's easily the best introductory hero, but it's so boring to always recommend the same hero when someone asks "where do I start?" Unfortunately, there's not really anyone else. Tidehunter isn't too bad, but Lich is still easier.

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I actually prefer the Dota 2 store to the LoL store because I can jsut search for any item I'd want and it pops up instantly. Also, the new grid setup is fuckin' boss. I know what all the icons mean, so I don't need the text!

And yeah I'd happily teach anyone how to play. n0b and I have introduced more than one dude to the game of Dota, and about half the time they go on to love the game, so I imagine we're not completely terrible at it!

I always hate recommending Lich to new players. Yes, he's easily the best introductory hero, but it's so boring to always recommend the same hero when someone asks "where do I start?" Unfortunately, there's not really anyone else. Tidehunter isn't too bad, but Lich is still easier.

The search is nice, but if you don't know what you're looking for I think the LoL one works a little better

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I rarely deviated from using the recommended builds in LoL because I hated the store interface so much. (And also because the recommended builds for same-type champs were always near identical, but that's beside the point.)

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The idea of much more variable item builds interests me, but on the other hand the idea that in general you're going to get much less gold doesn't. My favourite games are those that are balanced by making everyone cool, a la TF2 for example. I don't particularly like the idea that I would ever feel like I just don't have enough gold to get the things I want, and it clashes with what was said earlier about everyone in the game being lethal.

Well the thing about the balance in dota is that since there is no "AP," there is no scaling to the spells, which means that your abilities are much stronger early game and you don't need any items to make them better. If the AP casters in LoL don't keep up their farm at the same rate as the AD characters, they won't have enough burst damage to do what they need to do to win fights. There are many characters that can function perfectly well off of just a few early game items all the way into the mid-late game.

On a side note, as twig mentioned, we have introduced newer players to the game, so if people don't want to jump in on their own I'd be fine with giving some pointers. Either ingame or out of the game.

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Here's your first tip: Be decisive when you're in the side shop!

1r1o-sdIVWI

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She got nerfed in November.

I don't think the meta suits her very well either. Gwarden, i see you pop up every so often on my friends list. we should have a thumbs game. I play support mostly (janna atm), but i don't suck terribly at other places.

New computer arriving in the next week. I'll do my best to get on the DOTA2 beta then:D

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