Feminism

[twmac]

Someone should probably let Henry Rollins know that the video is using his music. Not sure he would be all that happy with his music being associated with that nonsense

[Dewar]

Some guy made a Tumblr account just to call Kate Leth a feminazi the other day.

 

How the fuck did "feminazi" become a thing anyway? It's the least creative insult ever and sounds like the kind of term that would be normally reserved for parodies of MRAs.

 

The first time I ever heard it was on Rush Limbaugh back 15 years ago when my Mom used to listen to it.

[Nachimir]

How the fuck did "feminazi" become a thing anyway? It's the least creative insult ever and sounds like the kind of term that would be normally reserved for parodies of MRAs.

 

I think the earliest use I've seen of it was by Dave Sim, in the mad, rambling, anti-feminist, anti-Islamic essays he started to put in the back of the monthly issues of Cerebus. Around 13 years ago I think.

 

Edit:

 

The first time I ever heard it was on Rush Limbaugh back 15 years ago when my Mom used to listen to it.

 

Oh, talk radio. That makes a lot of sense.

[Ben X]

 

I think the earliest use I've seen of it was by Dave Sim, in the mad, rambling, anti-feminist, anti-Islamic essays he started to put in the back of the monthly issues of Cerebus. Around 13 years ago I think.

 

I never read any of those, but I seem to recall reading a Page 45 newsletter years ago where Stephen said that those essays were largely ironic and/or misunderstood. Does that sound right?

[tegan]

"I was misunderstood/being ironic/making a joke" is the time-honoured go-to response of anyone who states their horribly offensive opinion and then immediately realizes it's bad PR.

[Problem Machine]

Of course, that's also the response made by people who are misunderstood, ironic, or making jokes, which makes it all a bit trickier...

[Nachimir]

Ah, I kind of have to be careful here since Stephen is a friend. I know for sure he doesn't have the same views as Sim, given as he is to humiliating homophobes and racists, and also being quite publicly gay. Sim and he have been (or were) friends for a long time though, as Sim and Gerhard were instrumental in setting up Page 45. Mark and Stephen were on tour with them, and griping about working for other people, and they egged them on into setting up a comic shop of their own instead. I'm pretty sure the biggest overlap in their beliefs was in Sim's advocacy for creators rights and support for people who wanted to self-publish.

 

All I know now is that Sim's views became more extreme over the past few decades, and I don't think he and Stephen are in much contact anymore. It's been many years since Stephen and I talked about him, but he never described Sim's rambling as ironic to me. Sim has never resorted to "It was ironic" or "It's just a joke", instead splitting hairs over the definition of misogynist, talking about anti-feminism and his strong opinions on what gender roles should be, which basically amounted to "I don't hate women, I just wish they'd stop being uppity. But the women and the homosexuals and the muslims just won't leave it to us right thinking men". The essays got weirder, more intense, and more devoutly religious toward the end of Cerebus. If you fancy having your brain dribble out of your ears while a near-endless procession of straw men dances in front of it, I found some of them here. Probably the weirdest things are that he sees an incredibly diverse social movement as a single, monolithic thing, and that he sees his sequence of anecdotally based nitpicks as some kind of monumental takedown of it.

 

Edit: First time round, Sim seemed a bit mad to me, and I was a bit young and naive to make much of it at all. On actually revisiting this, he seems a lot like the MRA types that plague us today. Which dovetails amazingly with this quote from him:

 

Because men are, in the main, compassionate and charitable fellows collectively, feminists tend always to get the money that they seek.

 

I'd half like to see him engage in rhetorical backflips around the misogynist internet rage machine of 2013, but the other half of me just wants to walk away and do something more productive than give any of them attention.

[Ben X]

It's been many years since Stephen and I talked about him, but he never described Sim's rambling as ironic to me. Sim has never resorted to "It was ironic" or "It's just a joke"

 

 

[For anyone who doesn't live in Nottingham, Page 45 is an amazing indie comic store, run by Stephen]

 

Hmmm, maybe I'm misremembering it, then. Could have sworn he said something about them being misinterpreted, but I'd never read it so couldn't absorb the statement any more than that.

 

 

"I was misunderstood/being ironic/making a joke" is the time-honoured go-to response of anyone who states their horribly offensive opinion and then immediately realizes it's bad PR.

 

Yeah, definitely. It's only because I know Stephen is not the type to agree with them on face value that I didn't dismiss it as the usual apologist bullshit.

[Ben X]

Ah ha, tweeted him and got linked to this review which "sums up [his] stance": http://www.page45.com/store/Cerebus-vol-14-Form-Void.html

 

It was the editor's note that I was half-remembering.

[clyde]

I get the impression that I would enjoy talking with this Stephen fellow.

[Ben X]

Well, he's mine and Nachimir's, so tough.

[Bjorn]

Since yesterday, Mikko Rautalahti's (writer at Remedy) blogpost on the recent atrocities has been making the rounds and stirring up quite some attention. It's a heartfelt indictment.

 

http://funpastimes.com/?p=1911

 

He pretty much nailed what I always think of the men and boys who freak out about this stuff:

"I know that in your head you’re putting somebody in their place, but all you’re really doing is running around and declaring yourself to be afraid and small and stupid…"

 

They all just end up looking like they are terrified of women. 

[sclpls]

Not games related (but then, this is in the idle banter section), but I do encourage everyone to read this conversation between Jessica Hopper and Jim DeRogatis about DeRogatis' lonely effort to cover R. Kelly's sexual predation on teenage girls that has been making the rounds. Aside from being an eye-opening piece, it was making me think about just how truly gross the phrase "white knight" is.

[Brannigan]

oh this is just general feminism stuff, just happened to be games related as of late 

[BigJKO]

Where's the link?

[Roderick]

I looked it up, it's nasty stuff.

[Joewintergreen]

this is potentially very positive

[SecretAsianMan]

I've been a rather vocal supporter of PAX on this forum but I do acknowledge it has problems that need to be fixed.  I'm glad to see them taking some steps toward that, however I wonder if creating a separate space is really the best approach.  I'd prefer to see it become a core part of the show.  Still I don't want to pass too much judgement without knowing more.

[TychoCelchuuu]

One of the weird things about having a twitter account is a personalized feed of reactions to things that generally accords with my views because I follow people who I tend to agree with:

The idea of a safe space run by Mike Krahulik is so funny that you'd think it's a joke Penny Arcade is making. That guy is a walking unsafe space. That's his entire schtick.

[TychoCelchuuu]

Okay one more set:

[Hermie]

One of the weird things about having a twitter account is a personalized feed of reactions to things that generally accords with my views because I follow people who I tend to agree with:

 

To me this feels like how a lot of the recent Internet Bigotry has come to fruition. People carefully construct their little bubble made up of everything they agree with, so when something that crosses into their bubble acts against their own perspective, like a video game featuring homosexuality, their entire world feels like it's being assaulted.

 

 

 

MIND YOU: Not an excuse for anything.

[sclpls]

Oh, sorry BigJKO, the link is here: http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2013/12/read_the_stomac.php

[Bjorn]

The Penny Arcade stuff has confused me for years.  You can't really have a rational discussion online about it.  If you appear to be on PA's side, you've suddenly become an apologist for them (and painted with the same brush that "white knights" get painted with...which is weird).  On a lot of the sites I hang out on, it's become the cool thing to hate on them. 

[Dewar]

I've been a rather vocal supporter of PAX on this forum but I do acknowledge it has problems that need to be fixed.  I'm glad to see them taking some steps toward that, however I wonder if creating a separate space is really the best approach.  I'd prefer to see it become a core part of the show.  Still I don't want to pass too much judgement without knowing more.

 

My wife and I have never experienced anything but positive (if somewhat akward) interactions at PAX, going back to before we were married. We often split up and go our seperate ways and as far as I know (and we've talked about it) she's never felt uncomfortable. The reports of stuff that has gone on at PAX, while certainly a bad thing, aren't any worse than what I have seen the few times I have gone to a night club. I don't know how PAX has become the scape goat for creepy people. Creepy people are everywhere.

 

Edit: I'm a bit torn on this diversity room thing. There have been diversity panels at PAX every year since PAX has been large enough to have community driven panels, and I don't necessarily see the purpose behind having an area dedicated to it. At the same time, it would be really cool for those that are active in that community to see all of the games relating to that subject in one place. Yet it might just provide a target for stupid people to do stupid things.

[Argobot]

My wife and I have never experienced anything but positive (if somewhat akward) interactions at PAX, going back to before we were married. We often split up and go our seperate ways and as far as I know (and we've talked about it) she's never felt uncomfortable. The reports of stuff that has gone on at PAX, while certainly a bad thing, aren't any worse than what I have seen the few times I have gone to a night club. I don't know how PAX has become the scape goat for creepy people. Creepy people are everywhere.

 

Edit: I'm a bit torn on this diversity room thing. There have been diversity panels at PAX every year since PAX has been large enough to have community driven panels, and I don't necessarily see the purpose behind having an area dedicated to it. At the same time, it would be really cool for those that are active in that community to see all of the games relating to that subject in one place. Yet it might just provide a target for stupid people to do stupid things.

 

 

The difference between PAX and just being out in public is that PAX is marketed as a "safe space" where a community can gather and enjoy their shared love for a specific medium. The organizers of the conference have a responsibility to make their event as inclusive as possible, as a service to their fans and supporters. If you're alienating a part of your community, you're doing something wrong. Shrugging off these problems by saying "it happens everywhere else" is such a defeatist (and privileged) attitude to have.

 

By literally segregating a portion of their conference off for "diversity," the people who run PAX are admitting that making their conference as open as possible is not a top priority. They want to do as little work as possible and then be praised for it ("We made a Diversity Lounge! What more do these people want?")