Jump to content
Roderick

Feminism

Recommended Posts

He's doing it because he's mad that I made a post with the text "This thread seems unhealthy." in the let's-all-laugh-at-GG thread. That post led to the thread being locked, and it upset him for some reason.

 

I don't want to believe that. Who is petty enough to hold a grudge like that for weeks and spend a non-trivial amount of their time bothering unrelated parties in order to make some insignificant point? These forums have to be better than that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's different to report an action taken by a corporation as opposed to harassment done by GamerGate. If this post had been, look at what GG did to this lady with a link to one of the articles about the harassment, I wouldn't find it particularly helpful. But since Nintendo took action, and the post is focusing on that, I think it's useful information to know.

 

I think it's important to talk about it regardless. I just also think it's important to talk about the how and why and what-can-we-do-about-it, not just the whodunnit.

 

 

I don't want to believe that. Who is petty enough to hold a grudge like that for weeks and spend a non-trivial amount of their time bothering unrelated parties in order to make some insignificant point? These forums have to be better than that.

 
Hey, if it turns out I'm wrong, I'll gladly eat my hat and apologize for the false accusation. I'd prefer that outcome, to be honest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey, if it turns out I'm wrong, I'll gladly eat my hat and apologize for the false accusation. I'd prefer that outcome, to be honest.

 

video pls

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

video pls

is it too late to say i meant it figuratively?? D: D:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was the last person to obsess over everything happening in that area of the internet in the journalistic integrity thread. I take the blame for getting it and consenting to it getting closed.

 

Not accidentally, in my last post, I obsessed over Alison Rapp's by then already ongoing brutal, reckless and illogical harassment.

 

That was 38 days ago.

 

And right now I'm thinking, maybe people should have obsessed over this case a good deal more, a good deal earlier, a good deal longer, a good deal louder, and with a fair bit more obsession:mellow:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I mean I checked out of the gamergate thread a long time ago because it was just way too deep into the weeds for me to follow. This is a story that has been covered by a ton of outlets though, and is clearly relevant to the thread because, some disputed issue regarding Alison Rapp's 2nd place of employment notwithstanding, she got fired essentially for being a woman who expressed feminist ideas on twitter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

is it too late to say i meant it figuratively?? D: D:

All pledges made on internet forums are binding contracts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My point is, why have the gamergate thread "rightly" closed, just to start posting the same stuff here?

 

Like I said, this was my point here. 

 

I've said it elsewhere like twice ever. There was something of the "long-term satirical project" in there, I guess, or pushing against the growing tendency here for people to call for threads to be locked or make a single post on a thread purely to say that they don't like the thread. Perhaps I was just being "an immature baby".

 

But no, I didn't post it because I was mad or upset or holding a grudge.

 

Anyway, I accidentally derailed the thread even more than a potential spurt of gg-related posts would do, so if anyone would like to continue this conversation in another thread (Random Thoughts?) I'd be happy to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, wow, I didn't expect this.

 

Indeed, my post wasn't intended as an invitation to talk about GamerGate all over again. The discussion about it ran its course and became unhealthy. Like I said, the thread was rightfully closed.

What I find worthy of attention is the reaction of Nintendo.

 

It definitely seems like an object lesson of how risk-adverse companies can be harmful to women's and LGBTQIA rights. Ultimately, protecting the bottom line means protecting the status quo, which is always somewhere between indifferent and hostile to the condition of the oppressed.

 

I agree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Am I just some sort of scum for thinking that this is no where nearly as clean cut as "GG bullies Nintendo into firing a woman"?  Like some of her tweets on CP (not her research paper) comes across vague in the bad ways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Damn, good piece.

 

We have a community that defends the rights of fictional women but will persecute real ones without a second thought and that’s the saddest part of it all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess I am?  I'm sorry it's just the whole pursuit for binary aspects of this event is just something I'm having difficult time coping with.  Like I don't have a doubt that she was wronged but I'm also having a hard time with the approach that any criticism of her is just simple victim blaming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not that any criticism of her is victim blaming, it's that this criticism is only happening because she was targeted by the shit brigade, and in that context unfortunately can be interpreted to justify their tactics.

Basically we can't have good debates about it because GG types poison the well. The stakes of the conversation are no longer what they should be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, if you posted in this thread, and said, "Oh, hey, look, I found this argument someone is making that in the cultural context of Japan, blah, blah, blah.  I think I disagree with this, and with this persons other thoughts on X subject." That's one thing, and would probably make for an interesting conversation.  But in this context, you only know all of those things because they were used against her as part of a sustained harassment campaign, not because the harassers cared, but because it was the ammunition they could find. 

 

To me, the most interesting discussion right now is about Nintendo.  I like the summary at the end of this Game Informer piece.

 

While the stories don't completely line up, there is one thing of which we can be certain. Nintendo remained silent as Alison Rapp was harassed over the past few months. She took the brunt of attacks for localization decisions made by the company and, as she states, were in opposition to her own opinions in some cases.

What ultimately happened at the end of her employment with Nintendo follows months of the company turning its back on her. Whether you agree with the localization decisions made for Xenoblade Chronicles X, Fire Emblem Fates, or any other game brought over from Japan, remember that these decisions are rarely made by a single person in a vacuum. No one deserves the level of harassment Rapp faced.

 

 

Nintendo hung her out to dry and to weather, what appears to be single handedly, a harassment campaign whose source was the decision they had made as a company.  That's just the shittiest.  I don't know how to look at this in any other way than Nintendo becoming party to the abuse for refusing to support an employee who was being attacked for decisions that one of her bosses made.  And to not even acknowledge the harassment until after she had been fired.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, if you posted in this thread, and said, "Oh, hey, look, I found this argument someone is making that in the cultural context of Japan, blah, blah, blah.  I think I disagree with this, and with this persons other thoughts on X subject." That's one thing, and would probably make for an interesting conversation.  But in this context, you only know all of those things because they were used against her as part of a sustained harassment campaign, not because the harassers cared, but because it was the ammunition they could find. 

 

It's not her thesis though.  I read that and ppl using that against her are imo flat out wrong.  It's her tweets after that kinda worries me because they are super vague and open to worst interpretations.  Ok so you are right that I only know of her faults (and her and this whole deal really) cause of this harassment, but why can't it be that harassment is shit and that it happens to land on someone who maybe had some serious dirt on them?

 

I'm sorry if I'm derailing but I'm just having a hard time coming to the view that we ought to completely ignore possible (I emphasize possible because again, her tweets were vague) promotion of CP for sake of easier time combating harassment.  I think it's much better to even simply acknowledge her possibly problematic tweets instead of urging ppl to hush about it.

 

At the same time I also get that there are many ppl who wants to do the total opposite of wanting to erase harassment cause of some possible dirt they found on her.  So I am asking this with extremely distorted face out of the shittiness of the situation but couldn't we try to fight the shit tactics that GG used without resorting to ignoring the possibility that its victim might have promoted CP?

 

There are lot of "maybes" in this post and I strongly emphasize those maybes.

 

 

Nintendo hung her out to dry and to weather, what appears to be single handedly, a harassment campaign whose source was the decision they had made as a company.  That's just the shittiest.  I don't know how to look at this in any other way than Nintendo becoming party to the abuse for refusing to support an employee who was being attacked for decisions that one of her bosses made.  And to not even acknowledge the harassment until after she had been fired.

 

Yes, on related note unions can't come fast enough for game industry :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The other part of this is that I think that western society has an absolutely insane outlook on 'cp', to the point where we consistently choose perv-bashing over the actual welfare of children, which is a huge can of worms debate I don't want to bring into this topic, which is where that line of inquiry would probably lead :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not her thesis though. I read that and ppl using that against her are imo flat out wrong. It's her tweets after that kinda worries me because they are super vague and open to worst interpretations. Ok so you are right that I only know of her faults (and her and this whole deal really) cause of this harassment, but why can't it be that harassment is shit and that it happens to land on someone who maybe had some serious dirt on them?

I'm sorry if I'm derailing but I'm just having a hard time coming to the view that we ought to completely ignore possible (I emphasize possible because again, her tweets were vague) promotion of CP for sake of easier time combating harassment. I think it's much better to even simply acknowledge her possibly problematic tweets instead of urging ppl to hush about it.

At the same time I also get that there are many ppl who wants to do the total opposite of wanting to erase harassment cause of some possible dirt they found on her. So I am asking this with extremely distorted face out of the shittiness of the situation but couldn't we try to fight the shit tactics that GG used without resorting to ignoring the possibility that its victim might have promoted CP?

There are lot of "maybes" in this post and I strongly emphasize those maybes.

Yes, on related note unions can't come fast enough for game industry :(

I haven't been following this case but I've seen this tactic before. This is pretty much exactly what victim-blaming or just-world hypothesis looks like. If someone is being attacked by a mob, then the only priority is to descalate and get them to safety. I don't think a crowd is the best group to judge a someone's possible crimes based off of impressions of their tweets while a mob is attacking them. If you are interested in debating the ethics of child-pornography, it would be best to discuss it as a generality rather than a damnable offense of one individual who happens to be in the midst of an ongoing mobbing. If you want to bring child-pornographers to justice, then I recommend dedicating yourself to a law-enforcement or social-welfare career.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nintendo hung her out to dry and to weather, what appears to be single handedly, a harassment campaign whose source was the decision they had made as a company.  That's just the shittiest.  I don't know how to look at this in any other way than Nintendo becoming party to the abuse for refusing to support an employee who was being attacked for decisions that one of her bosses made.  And to not even acknowledge the harassment until after she had been fired.

 

Yeah, I can't help but feel for her automatically, because attracting a hate mob for my boss' decision and my boss doing nothing to stop that mob is maybe one of my greatest professional anxieties. It's utterly despicable and the only comfort I can take from it is that she's probably better off not working somewhere where her bosses so emphatically refuse to take responsibility for something like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The other part of this is that I think that western society has an absolutely insane outlook on 'cp', to the point where we consistently choose perv-bashing over the actual welfare of children, which is a huge can of worms debate I don't want to bring into this topic, which is where that line of inquiry would probably lead :P

 

That's pretty much what her thesis was about and hence I thought using her thesis against her was nonsensical.

 

I haven't been following this case but I've seen this tactic before. This is pretty much exactly what victim-blaming or just-world hypothesis looks like. If someone is being attacked by a mob, then the only priority is to descalate and get them to safety. I don't think a crowd is the best group to judge a someone's possible crimes based off of impressions of their tweets while a mob is attacking them. If you are interested in debating the ethics of child-pornography, it would be best to discuss it as a generality rather than a damnable offense of one individual who happens to be in the midst of an ongoing mobbing. If you want to bring child-pornographers to justice, then I recommend dedicating yourself to a law-enforcement or social-welfare career.

 

I'm sorry I ever said anything on this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't be, it's maybe not the right conversation to have but the conversation about why it isn't the right conversation to have is absolutely the right conversation to have, so things work out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't be, it's maybe not the right conversation to have but the conversation about why it isn't the right conversation to have is absolutely the right conversation to have, so things work out.

 

 

:tup: :tup: :tup: :tup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry I ever said anything on this.

Just in case you feel that I am making an effort to malign the perspective you shared, I want to assure you that I'm not. I'm attempting to answer your question of whether or not a potential and/or actual discrepancy in a person's character can be discussed during a mobbing in a just and fair manner; and the answer is "No."

I'm not at all making judgements about you or your intentions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×