Feminism

[namman siggins]

I wrote 1000 words on menstruation between yesterday and today. I will link it up when it's done being proofed. I'm sure you guys are hotly anticipating such topics.

im always down.

A lot of the women I've been with or hang out with always educates my dumb ass on it; I hate being ignorant on such topics.

[Apple Cider]

I'm absolutely a menstruation evangelist, just in that I think it's a HUGE public health issue and we really ignore it and a lot of inter-related issues that crop up because of it. i would love it if we could get health insurance providers to reimburse or otherwise defray the costs of birth control AND sanitary products, or provide them for free or low-cost from the government. I am okay with paying higher taxes if it means people have access to sanitary products - they are absolutely essential to living, beyond all other things. 

[Ben X]

It pisses a lot of UK (or just English?) women off that sanitary products are treated as luxury items and therefore taxed like crazy.

 

Going back a bit (and kind of off-topic, sorry), here are some students who don't need trigger-warnings (or any help at all!) to act coddled and infantilised: http://www.avclub.com/article/duke-students-refuse-read-alison-bechdels-fun-home-224339

[tberton]

Canada just removed the tax on women's sanitary products. It was pretty big news. I don't think they're covered by medicare though, which is bullshit.

[Bjorn]

It pisses a lot of UK (or just English?) women off that sanitary products are treated as luxury items and therefore taxed like crazy.

 

That's....fucking ridiculous. 

[Apple Cider]

Ah yes, a product you need to live comfortably and healthily is a luxury item.

 

https://medium.com/@veryapplecider/re-thinking-menstruation-4836706a0764

 

here's the piece!

[Mangela Lansbury]

im always down.

A lot of the women I've been with or hang out with always educates my dumb ass on it; I hate being ignorant on such topics.

 

I'm consistently shocked by how much more I know about menstruation than a lot of my straight friends just from growing up with two sisters, especially since I'm acutely aware of the fact that I don't know very much.

[Ben X]

What is there to know that these straight friends don't? (Must admit, I found out quite late in life that tampon sizes relates to heaviness of flow rather than size of vagina.)

[namman siggins]

I know the biology of it, but the more social nuances always get to me.

 

I've hung out with women most my life too! The fuck man...
 

Whatever, I'll learn and get better. 

 

Thanks for the article, Apple Cider.

[SecretAsianMan]

What is there to know that these straight friends don't? (Must admit, I found out quite late in life that tampon sizes relates to heaviness of flow rather than size of vagina.)

 

When I was a kid I thought that women peed blue because in tampon commercials they always used blue liquid to show the absorbency.  I continued to think that for far longer than I honestly should have.

[clyde]

When I was a kid I thought that women peed blue because in tampon commercials they always used blue liquid to show the absorbency. I continued to think that for far longer than I honestly should have.

Thanks for sharing.

[Mangela Lansbury]

What is there to know that these straight friends don't? (Must admit, I found out quite late in life that tampon sizes relates to heaviness of flow rather than size of vagina.)

I had a friend in his mid-20s who was confused that a girl needed time to handle things. He thought that once a month, you just had to uh... deposit everything in a toilet, like it was a massive vagina blood poop. Cramps and all that were just because you "held it in" too long with tampons and pads, like when your stomach hurts from constipation.

Or one guy who thought girls could only get pregnant while they were menstruating, which (to give you an idea of age) came out when a mutual friend said him and his wife were trying to get pregnant.

There are a lot of very weird misconceptions out there.

[Bjorn]

When I was a kid I thought that women peed blue because in tampon commercials they always used blue liquid to show the absorbency.  I continued to think that for far longer than I honestly should have.

 

Seriously, thank you for admitting it, I needed a chuckle tonight.

 

 

 

Sooooo, anyone have any advice on talking Feminism 101 with a very patriarchal old christian man?  Like, angles or avenues to try and get some ideas through?

[Apple Cider]

Jesus was extremely compassionate to sex workers and women with reproductive disorders.

[BobbyBesar]

Sooooo, anyone have any advice on talking Feminism 101 with a very patriarchal old christian man?  Like, angles or avenues to try and get some ideas through?

 

My guess is that you might need to start with what modern Feminism is actually about, rather than the straw-man version of it that he may have constructed in his head.

[namman siggins]

I had a friend in his mid-20s who was confused that a girl needed time to handle things. He thought that once a month, you just had to uh... deposit everything in a toilet, like it was a massive vagina blood poop. Cramps and all that were just because you "held it in" too long with tampons and pads, like when your stomach hurts from constipation.

Or one guy who thought girls could only get pregnant while they were menstruating, which (to give you an idea of age) came out when a mutual friend said him and his wife were trying to get pregnant.

There are a lot of very weird misconceptions out there.

oh my...

Then again I've heard weird things from kids describing sex. Like having to sex through anal and shitting....

Parents, please teach your kids how sex works.

[twmac]

Ah yes, a product you need to live comfortably and healthily is a luxury item.

 

https://medium.com/@veryapplecider/re-thinking-menstruation-4836706a0764

 

here's the piece!

 

 

For me that article was about a paradigm change in my anachronistic views on gender. I know a couple of Non-binary people and serveral who are transgender but there is always a little part of me that still breaks everything down along male/female divides. This meant that when I saw that diagram my brain did a little flip/double take.

 

Then I read more of the article and almost slapped myself. Slowly but surely I am getting there.

[Bjorn]

Jesus was extremely compassionate to sex workers and women with reproductive disorders.

 

That's something I've tried, but the reaction is "I can love people in spite of who they are" and the response I want to give is, "Go fuck yourself, try loving people for who they are because when you say that, you're still saying that there's something wrong with them."  But I'm trying not to make the situation worse. 

 

My guess is that you might need to start with what modern Feminism is actually about, rather than the straw-man version of it that he may have constructed in his head.

 

Yeah, I've been struggling with how surprisingly regressive some of his ideas about sex and sexuality are, for a man who is otherwise incredibly thoughtful and intelligent. 

 

Ugh.

 

 

 

Anyways, different topic.  I took the lady and another friend of ours to the Oddball Comedy Festival last night for the lady's birthday, headlined by Amy Schumer and Aziz Ansari, and it put a lot of the earlier discussion we had about that Atlantic article and comedy in context for me.  It also made me think that author and a lot of the comics in it are full of shit and willfully ignoring some of what people are choosing not to book on college campuses.  There were something like 15 total comedians, a pretty even mix of local/regional talent and national acts.  Schumer and Ansari were great, and Bridget Everett was FUCKING AMAZING AND I WANT TO BE HER BEST FRIEND.  Seriously.   But then there was the other side of the spectrum, which was full of a bunch of asshats (all men, and almost all white).  A selection of bits that various comics did (this comes from a total of 5 or 6 guys):

 

A long bit about how much a guy hates his daughter, how much he wishes he had a son, and just how fucking terrible raising a girl is

A bit about how bitch ain't such a bad word

A transgender bit lamenting about how you can't even say "chicks with dicks" anymore

A Caitlyn Jenner bit about how her being transgender is really because she made a deal with the devil to be a great athlete

Another Caitlyn Jenner bit about being a fan of anyone who kills a woman with a car

A bit about getting off watching a stripper fall off a pole and break her nose, because it meant he didn't have to do it himself

A bit about how an audience member was so ugly that even Bill Cosby wouldn't rape her (which came off much more as being just about being mean to an audience member than it did say anything particularly interesting about Cosby)

At least 10 different "black guys have big dicks" jokes from multiple comedians, which is just like the laziest fucking joke without even getting into all the reasons it's just fucked up.

 

None of this shit was transgressive, or interesting, or funny, or pushing boundaries, it was just telling mean jokes that shitty people will laugh at.  So when people try and defend how you have to let comedy have more leeway, it's like, sure, it can have some leeway, but that doesn't mean it gets a carte fucking blance exemption from being criticized.

[Gaizokubanou]

When you say christian, I assume he's one of protestant branch and not say, catholic or russian orthodox or another less well known variation?

 

Because the protestant branch I grew up with is all about how humans are all pure shit and are forever doomed for eternal damnation so judging another human is considered as at best futile effort and at worst despicable because you are showing contempt towards God that loves all of you equally despite how fucked we all are.

 

Like, I think lot of that is deeply rooted in core principles of protestanism, that we are saved only by the grace of God and cannot save ourselves due to our own good deed.  So to hear protestants judging others as not worthy is like duuuuude you missed the main note?

[Griddlelol]

A long bit about how much a guy hates his daughter, how much he wishes he had a son, and just how fucking terrible raising a girl is

A bit about how bitch ain't such a bad word

A transgender bit lamenting about how you can't even say "chicks with dicks" anymore

A Caitlyn Jenner bit about how her being transgender is really because she made a deal with the devil to be a great athlete

Another Caitlyn Jenner bit about being a fan of anyone who kills a woman with a car

A bit about getting off watching a stripper fall off a pole and break her nose, because it meant he didn't have to do it himself

A bit about how an audience member was so ugly that even Bill Cosby wouldn't rape her (which came off much more as being just about being mean to an audience member than it did say anything particularly interesting about Cosby)

At least 10 different "black guys have big dicks" jokes from multiple comedians, which is just like the laziest fucking joke without even getting into all the reasons it's just fucked up.

 

I'm usually under the impression that anything can be funny, but most of that sounds like it came out of a 14 year old kid's mouth, trying to act cool for the older kids.

Pretty sad that passes as comedy.

[namman siggins]

But muh freedom of speech. 

 

That's something I've tried, but the reaction is "I can love people in spite of who they are" and the response I want to give is, "Go fuck yourself, try loving people for who they are because when you say that, you're still saying that there's something wrong with them."  But I'm trying not to make the situation worse. 

 

 

Yeah, I've been struggling with how surprisingly regressive some of his ideas about sex and sexuality are, for a man who is otherwise incredibly thoughtful and intelligent. 

 

Ugh.

 

 

 

Anyways, different topic.  I took the lady and another friend of ours to the Oddball Comedy Festival last night for the lady's birthday, headlined by Amy Schumer and Aziz Ansari, and it put a lot of the earlier discussion we had about that Atlantic article and comedy in context for me.  It also made me think that author and a lot of the comics in it are full of shit and willfully ignoring some of what people are choosing not to book on college campuses.  There were something like 15 total comedians, a pretty even mix of local/regional talent and national acts.  Schumer and Ansari were great, and Bridget Everett was FUCKING AMAZING AND I WANT TO BE HER BEST FRIEND.  Seriously.   But then there was the other side of the spectrum, which was full of a bunch of asshats (all men, and almost all white).  A selection of bits that various comics did (this comes from a total of 5 or 6 guys):

 

A long bit about how much a guy hates his daughter, how much he wishes he had a son, and just how fucking terrible raising a girl is

A bit about how bitch ain't such a bad word

A transgender bit lamenting about how you can't even say "chicks with dicks" anymore

A Caitlyn Jenner bit about how her being transgender is really because she made a deal with the devil to be a great athlete

Another Caitlyn Jenner bit about being a fan of anyone who kills a woman with a car

A bit about getting off watching a stripper fall off a pole and break her nose, because it meant he didn't have to do it himself

A bit about how an audience member was so ugly that even Bill Cosby wouldn't rape her (which came off much more as being just about being mean to an audience member than it did say anything particularly interesting about Cosby)

At least 10 different "black guys have big dicks" jokes from multiple comedians, which is just like the laziest fucking joke without even getting into all the reasons it's just fucked up.

 

None of this shit was transgressive, or interesting, or funny, or pushing boundaries, it was just telling mean jokes that shitty people will laugh at.  So when people try and defend how you have to let comedy have more leeway, it's like, sure, it can have some leeway, but that doesn't mean it gets a carte fucking blance exemption from being criticized.

1. One thing I've learned is that it's hard to close to impossible to change people, especially when they get older. I've learned to let it go and not even engage because it's going to be a hassle and both parties are going to leave with a bad taste in their mouth.

My uncle drops nigger a lot and I've talked to him about, no go. I had the same conversation with my Mom and Dad; although, they have stopped saying it and moved to The Blacks to having a tolerance to them. So, a pyrrhic victory, I think, but I'll take it.

 

It's like that with older generations and like I said, I leave it and accept it. 

 

2. That's some lazy ass fucking jokes. 

Comedy is allowed to be a free-for-all BUT there has to be some depth to it. Even if it doesn't have depth, 99% of it is not funny, it's just racist/sexist and any ist shit.  A lot of these motherfuckers that complain about rampant "PC culture" are full of shit and want to hold on to their ability to be assholes without being funny, thoughtful assholes.

 

UGH. I have so many thoughts about this subject because I love comedy. 

[itsamoose]

The one thing I've learned about stand up comedy is that there are way more bad comics than good ones, and they are usually louder. I think it comes from, funnily enough, years ago when swearing wasn't allowed on TV and comics like Carlin and Pryor turned that on it's head. Now that it's commonplace I think some take it to be a virtue unto itself. By the way would anyone be interested in a comedy thread? I'm pretty big into stand up but I feel like we've derailed this one enough.

[Fingus]

That's a great idea moose.

The culture and craft around comedy is really interesting. 

[BobbyBesar]

Yeah, I've been struggling with how surprisingly regressive some of his ideas about sex and sexuality are, for a man who is otherwise incredibly thoughtful and intelligent. 

 

I once had a conversation with my in-laws about how Feminism was bad for women because now women have to work and don't get doors held open for them. It was a strange night.

 

The only actual advice I have for how to approach this: avoid labels entirely. Never let on that you're trying to talk about Feminism. Start with the points that you think he will be able to agree with, the ones that correspond with bible teachings that he's familiar with, or that match up with other positive beliefs that he's shared with you in the past. Don't push it too hard. If you can get your foot in the door with some things that he agrees with, then say "well, that's largely what people mean when they talk about Feminism these days."

 

This is assuming that you're trying to identify common ground and build from it. If there are things that he flat out disagrees with, you're probably not going to ever succeed. People just don't like other people changing them, and confrontation generally just makes people dig in their heels. The best you can do is to lay down the framework, so that he has all the tools he needs to take the next step himself.

 

Hope there's something helpful in there.

[James]

It turns out Chrissie Hynde (the singer from the Pretenders) blames herself for a sexual assault she was victim of at the age of 21. She says some clearly very unhelpful things, and it looks like it's kind of blown up on social media, but it's hard to ignore the tragedy in her spending all this time blaming herself for this horrendous thing that was done to her. I don't suppose that's too uncommon, either.