Feminism

[deleted user]

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[SecretAsianMan]

I considered bringing up the Batgirl cover thing in the GG thread when they jumped on board.  #ChangetheCover was floating around when it first started which naturally got combined with #GamerGate when they started getting into it.  Because of course video game ethics and comic book covers go hand in hand.

 

Although I did enjoy the response one of the writers had that Batgirl was written to be a literal Social Justice Warrior, revealing that the people complaining that SJWs are the reason the cover got cancelled are the most clueless people ever.

[Ben X]

the Killing Joke was a really dark storyline that even Alan Moore felt bad about after the fact.

 

You don't happen to have any links for this, do you? I've read a few interviews where he's made an offhand comment along the lines of it being the worst story he's ever done, but he was never specific about the reasons, so I just assumed he didn't like the writing generally or how heavily it leaned on similar techniques to the ones he was using in Watchmen or something...

 

EDIT: wikipedia did send me to here

 

As Moore recalls, "I asked DC if they had any problem with me crippling Barbara Gordon - who was Batgirl at the time - and if I remember, I spoke to Len Wein, who was our editor on the project...[He] said, 'Yeah, okay, cripple the bitch.' It was probably one of the areas where they should’ve reined me in, but they didn’t."

[Apple Cider]

Yeah, that's basically the quote I was referencing. I don't think it's Alan Moore's fault so much that DC pretty much let him have free rein and he felt bad about it later. 

[Mangela Lansbury]

There's a bit from a Slate interview where everyone's favorite comic wizard says he doesn't like the Killing Joke, thinks its gross scenes are unnecessary, and calls it a meaningless work. I'd quote it, but I'm on my phone at work so the formatting could end up just awful.

http://www.salon.com/2009/03/05/alan_moore_q_a/

[SecretAsianMan]

I have mixed feelings about the Killing Joke.  Significant spoilers ahead for the comic if you don't know anything about it, but I'm not going to hide them because they're crucial to my entire point.

 

On the one hand, it involves the Joker shooting and paralyzing Barbra Gordon (in her civilian identity, not even as Batgirl) then stripping her clothes off and taking pictures in order to torment her father.  Obviously they don't directly show rape but it is certainly implied.  The reason the Joker attacks her isn't because he discovers she's Batgirl or because he's committing some random crime, it's to get to her dad.  Barbara is basically a tool, her involvement incidental because she's the Commissioner's daughter.  Additionally, it becomes a major focal point for her and is frequently revisited in subsequent comics.  Her male peers in the Bat family don't seem to have this problem even though they've been through similar trauma (ie Batman and Bane, Jason Todd and Joker).

 

On the other hand, she overcame this great adversity and created a new identity as Oracle, a physically handicapped superheroine.  She fights using her intelligence and forms her own all female team, the Birds of Prey.  I think the Oracle character was great and it obviously wouldn't have happened without the Killing Joke.  Additionally you get other women who take up the mantle of Batgirl like Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown, who would also likely not have existed if it was always Barbara.

 

I guess in the end I don't like the Killing Joke itself but I liked some of the stuff that happened as a result.

[thefncrow]

Just prior to the publication of Killing Joke, they released a Batgirl comic entitled "The Last Batgirl Story" where she retires from being Batgirl, just in time for her to be paralyzed. DC Editorial was apparently good with The Killing Joke basically being the end of the line for that character.

Apparently, the stuff that came after was because some people working for DC, including Ostrander, got really pissed off about her treatment and began to push to make sure Barbara Gordon's last real appearance wasn't The Killing Joke.

So, yeah, there were some positive aspects that came out of it, but the stories tend to indicate that the positive aspects were basically backlash from how shitty DC handled things.

[Problem Machine]

Oracle is rad, but there are plenty of ways for that to happen without her getting objectified and victimized as she was. That said, there's some interesting ideas in The Killing Joke, it's just kinda shitty that she got thrown under the bus to make them happen.

[SecretAsianMan]

Oracle is rad, but there are plenty of ways for that to happen without her getting objectified and victimized as she was. That said, there's some interesting ideas in The Killing Joke, it's just kinda shitty that she got thrown under the bus to make them happen.

 

One thing I want to clarify about my post: I don't mean that the Killing Joke specifically had to happen for her to become Oracle (although there are some comics that came after that basically say it had to happen which is kind of bullshit).  I agree there are definitely better ways for that transformation to occur.

 

(Not that I think you were calling me out on that, I just wanted to make my thoughts clear)

[Ben X]

There's a bit from a Slate interview where everyone's favorite comic wizard says he doesn't like the Killing Joke, thinks its gross scenes are unnecessary, and calls it a meaningless work. I'd quote it, but I'm on my phone at work so the formatting could end up just awful.

http://www.salon.com/2009/03/05/alan_moore_q_a/

 

I’ve got no problem with nasty scenes as long as they are for a purpose. There are some nasty scenes in “Watchmen,” but “Watchmen” is an intelligent meditation on the nature of power so it is actually talking about something which is relevant to the world in which we all live. Whereas in “The Killing Joke,” what you’ve got is a story about Batman and the Joker, and while it did draw interesting parallels between these two fictional characters, at the end of the day that’s all they are, fictional characters. They’re not even fictional characters that have any bearing on anyone you’re likely to meet in reality

 

... 

 

I suppose that if there was anything actually being said in “The Killing Joke,” it was that everybody has probably got a reason for being where they are, even the most monstrous of us.

 

To clarify something further (spoilers quoted):

 

it involves the Joker shooting and paralyzing Barbra Gordon (in her civilian identity, not even as Batgirl) then stripping her clothes off and taking pictures in order to torment her father.  Obviously they don't directly show rape but it is certainly implied.

 

The implication is purely in the actions of stripping and photographing her, right? It's not implied in other ways?

[Apple Cider]

The method of throwing Barbs under the bus would be way less of a sting to me if it weren't a fucking trope in comics and other media at this point - a woman has to be brutalized in some way for all the "good things" in the narrative to come later. Sure, we got something beneficial out of it, but it was all the choice of the writers. I'm tired of women being hurt and raped and maimed in story in order to make them better in some way. 

[SecretAsianMan]

To clarify something further (spoilers quoted):

 

 

 

The implication is purely in the actions of stripping and photographing her, right? It's not implied in other ways?

 

I don't think the Joker flat out states he raped her or anything.  He knocks on her door and shoots her in surprise when she opens it, then proceeds to strip her naked and take photos of the process.  He shows the photos to her father in an attempt to drive him insane.  Anything beyond the photos is pretty much speculation but at the very least it's some form of sexual assault.  Part of the reason the pulled cover was controversial was the sexual suggestions it was making in its allusions to the Killing Joke.

 

 

The method of throwing Barbs under the bus would be way less of a sting to me if it weren't a fucking trope in comics and other media at this point - a woman has to be brutalized in some way for all the "good things" in the narrative to come later. Sure, we got something beneficial out of it, but it was all the choice of the writers. I'm tired of women being hurt and raped and maimed in story in order to make them better in some way. 

 

It's definitely an example of women in refrigerators.  Like I said, I like the stuff that came out of it, I just wish it could have come about as a result of something else.

[Gwardinen]

There's kind of a curious dichotomy in the two biggest DC character worlds - Batman and Superman.

 

With pretty few exceptions, characters related to Batman and Gotham are defined by their trauma. The bad things that have happened in their life are almost always the cause of who they become in the story. The most obvious example is the murder of Bruce Wayne's parents turning him into Batman, but this true of Robin as well and almost all the villains - Two-Face was created by his physical trauma, in some origin stories so is the Joker, Harley Quinn loses her mind, Mr. Freeze loses his wife, etc.

 

In contrast, characters related to Superman and Metropolis are often defined by the good things in their life. Again you look to the big man himself - Clark Kent is a superhero because he has powers, yes, but even more importantly because he was raised to be. His parents are good to the point of unbelievability sometimes, and they teach him to be selfless and kind in turn. Even Lex Luthor pretty much seems to be a villain because of a good quality - his intelligence. He is just too smart and the arrogance is what leads him to the dark side (among other things, but I think you can see where I'm going with this). It's not as ironclad a rule as with Batman, but sometimes that only serves to highlight how profound the tendency is in Batman stories.

 

Anyway, just idle musings.

[Codicier]

So as a result of all this talk i decided to re-read the Killing Joke. & a lot of what SAM says above holds true but there's one earlier bit of story/context which is worth talking about a little & which i think makes that complete story as disturbing but relevant to feminism in a weirdly different way to the cover which was paying "homage" to it.

 

See I think pulling the cover probably the right idea as the artists seems to have entirely missed the point of what the Killing Joke was about. 

 

The story was in some ways a examination how cycles of violence that perpetuates themselves and the role patriarchal archetype has in causing harm to men & women, .

 

The Killing Joke is in part a (possible) origin story for the joker, in it he is depicted as having been a "jobless loser" who felt that he had a obligation to look after his wife and soon to be born child. It's implied that his relationship with her is strained by his perceived failure to be a provider/father but that he does love her and is very emotionally honest with her in some ways he's trying to be a "nice guy" and "to do the right thing". So finally driven by yet another failure he takes a job as a bit player in a mob heist to try and get the money he needs to be the man he feels he needs to be he even says

 

Y'See, I have to prove myself. As a Husband, and, and as a Father! 

 

He's depicted as very nervous, probably not cut out for the work.

The out of nowhere during the meeting with the mobsters to check the plans details, hes suddenly informed that in his absence his wife has died in a freak accident, shocked and now wanting to back out of the heist (his only motivation to do it having been to provide for his wife/child) he is instead compelled to take part by the mobsters (you know how it goes from here chased by batman falls into chemicals etc), and the final flashback we see if of him alone breaking as the full impact of these events hit him.

 

So everything during the story is a attempt to break Gordon in the same way these events broke him. Gordon is the very image of everything the pre-joker wasn't, a near perfect patriarch, successful, honest, and most importantly able to protect those he loved.

 

I'd like to know which came 1st to Moore, the idea that the joker had a past & a wife he loved but couldn't protect (as he was expected to), or the idea to shoot Barb to put Gordon through the same. Is his whole backstory just a justification to shoot her or was her & her fathers relationship about the only healthy/ideal family one which existed in the batman universe at the time and so the only one which could mirror the backstory he'd decided on for the joker.

Sidenote:Christopher Nolan's The Dark Knight film feels like it was clearly inspired by TKJ with Harvey Dent as the prefect man who the Joker want to find out if he can break & who's lady is once again harmed as the climax event of that breaking.

 

Batmans whole role in this is very passive until the final confrontation even then batman talk to the joker at the end as important it's a plea for empathy, trying to convince him there is a way out, that they both need to break out of their loops of violence, there's a moment where it almost seems like he want to take the olive branch but that somehow its too late, maybe if someone had got to him sooner he might not have ended up this way, but in the end he's too broken to trust anyone scared he would end up hurt again.

 

I'm not claiming that TKJ was in anyway a feminist work, but I think it almost accidentally it manages to address the idea that the patriarchy and how men who fail to live up to it's ideals are harmed and harm other by its perpetuation is very relevant today.

[Apple Cider]

In that way it's a bit relevant in an accidental way that women tend to suffer the brunt of men being unable to figure themselves out. However, I'm kinda tired of stories like this in general, as someone who tends to want to read things that don't remind me of how shitty real life can be at times.

[Codicier]

In that way it's a bit relevant in an accidental way that women tend to suffer the brunt of men being unable to figure themselves out. However, I'm kinda tired of stories like this in general, as someone who tends to want to read things that don't remind me of how shitty real life can be at times.

Yeah TKJ could be seen as the worst of men (both what they do to other & themselves) where as the New batgirl was being pitched as a much (for lack of better words) fun take of a woman at her best. Which is why the two stories are such a bad match for a cover.

[Gaizokubanou]

There's a bit from a Slate interview where everyone's favorite comic wizard says he doesn't like the Killing Joke, thinks its gross scenes are unnecessary, and calls it a meaningless work. I'd quote it, but I'm on my phone at work so the formatting could end up just awful.

http://www.salon.com/2009/03/05/alan_moore_q_a/

 

Yeah that's a good insight.  This is the quote if anyone is having trouble finding exactly where it is.

 

One of the last mainstream comics you ever wrote was “Batman: The Killing Joke.”“The Dark Knight” seems to have drawn a little creative fuel from that.

Like the first one they made, by the admission of the writer and the director, drew a lot of creative energy from that. I suppose that maybe nobody’s had a good idea in the meantime. [chuckles] It’s a bit disappointing. With the actual work, I did the best job with what I had at the time. I wanted to work with Brian Bolland and vice versa. Brian said that he’d like to make it a book about the Joker so I was accommodating Brian with that, and Brian did a fantastic job. I have to say it’s not one of my favorite works. Pretty far from it, actually. I was doing it at roughly the same time I was doing “Watchmen”; a lot of my storytelling ideas are identical to the ones in “Watchmen.” I was pretty much under the influence of the other book, and also I thought that it was very, very nasty.

I’ve got no problem with nasty scenes as long as they are for a purpose. There are some nasty scenes in “Watchmen,” but “Watchmen” is an intelligent meditation on the nature of power so it is actually talking about something which is relevant to the world in which we all live. Whereas in “The Killing Joke,” what you’ve got is a story about Batman and the Joker, and while it did draw interesting parallels between these two fictional characters, at the end of the day that’s all they are, fictional characters. They’re not even fictional characters that have any bearing on anyone you’re likely to meet in reality.

 

And it's just spot on.  Problem isn't that Joker is being creepy or that Batgirl is captured... it's that the cover just defies everything about Batgirl as a character to the comic itself.  She's suppose to be brave crime fighter but her terrified looks betray that.  New series carries lot lighter tone and this sudden difference in tone isn't explain at all other than paying homage.  And that's what makes this 'fictional nastiness' actually bad.

 

I don't think the artist was intentionally trying to do disservice to women and Batgirl, but was blind to how unsuitable his method of paying homage was.

[Problem Machine]

I also saw this cover for Gotham Central floating around as a point of comparison. Granted, not everyone can aspire to the supreme badassitude of Renee Montoya, but it's a much less diminishing take on the same style of cover.

[tegan]

On the bright side, female Thor is selling significantly better than previous Thor, on the nose as it may be.

 

[SecretAsianMan]

I'm not claiming that TKJ was in anyway a feminist work, but I think it almost accidentally it manages to address the idea that the patriarchy and how men who fail to live up to it's ideals are harmed and harm other by its perpetuation is very relevant today.

 

The Killing Joke as an individual story is definitely about the Joker more than it is about Batman or Batgirl.  He's the central focus and the plot revolves around his attempt to drive Gordon insane by making him have a "really bad day".  However you can't deny that the biggest repercussion to come out of the comic revolves around Barbra.  People remember it as a great work (which is debatable) but the specific thing they remember that happened was Barbara getting shot and subsequently becoming Oracle.  If you take her out of the picture, it's pretty much a regular Joker does an insane thing and Batman stops him kind of plot.

[Ben X]

This is the quote if anyone is having trouble finding exactly where it is.

 

*ahem*

[tberton]

I don't know if people have already seen these, but I just read a pair of essays about Monica Lewinsky: one she wrote for Vanity Fair last year, and one from The New York Times this week. Both are gut punches and are essential reading, I think, for conversations about women in the public eye. Be warned: they get pretty heavy in places, talking about depression, public shaming and thoughts of suicide.

[Bjorn]

Funny, I was going to post those this morning.  I was browsing news right before bed last night, and ended up being up an hour later than I meant to reading through them. 

 

I wish I had something intelligent to say about them, but yeah, mostly just something that people need to read, hear what she has to say. 

[Bjorn]

I watched her TED talk while I got some work done this morning.  Ummm, wow.  I've actually grown pretty cynical about TED talks over the last couple of years, but fuck, this hit hard. 

[Gaizokubanou]

*ahem*

 

Sup?