Twig Posted October 28, 2014 Obviously this is nothing special about films and there are worse examples, but I was just kind of embarrassed for having liked this movie so much as a kid while being completely oblivious to the kind of ideas it was portraying. There's nothing wrong with liking a movie (or book or game) while also being aware of its flaws! I still like The Fifth Element. ):< Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CollegeBaby Posted October 28, 2014 I was actually thinking about that movie recently as well. It was prompted by the discussion of the Baby Got Backstory trope thread. I don't want to get into detail about it here since the other thread is much more appropriate for it but basically I think the movie is an example of it for a lot of the reasons you mention. That's what reminded me of it as well, but the back story is basically the point of all the other events of the film so I don't think it would apply. I still like the Fifth Element as well. I like how campy it is, and I think the visual design is amazing. I just have conflicted feelings about it now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dewar Posted October 28, 2014 To be fair, Bruce Willis movies in general are about him being bad-ass and everyone else sucking or being evil. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ben X Posted October 28, 2014 That's what reminded me of it as well, but the back story is basically the point of all the other events of the film so I don't think it would apply. Go ahead and put it in there, see what happens! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigJKO Posted October 28, 2014 Go ahead and put it in there, see what happens! Don't do it! It's a trap! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ben X Posted October 28, 2014 Ha ha, actually I was planning to say it fits, but I thought about it a little longer and now I'm not sure because of the SPPPPOOOOOIIILER love is the fifth element angle. But it is definitely problematic in all the ways CollegeBaby outlines above. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bjorn Posted October 28, 2014 At some point I've seen someone critique the Fifth Element as essentially being a super stylized fairy tale, complete with prince kissing the incapacitated princess at the end to save the day. I've also read some other thoughts on it with the weird thing of Leeloo being infantilized and childlike through much of the movie, and Dallas' obsession with her starts well before she's shown much of anything resembling adult capability. But I still love the movie, it's just one of those that even with all its problems, I prefer to enjoy it for the good stuff in it without condemning it for its myriad flaws. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sclpls Posted October 28, 2014 Perfect http://www.theonion.com/articles/i-dont-support-feminism-if-it-means-murdering-all,37301/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cyborg771 Posted October 29, 2014 Enjoying things in spite of problematic elements is something that needs to be taught in schools. I spent a long time in my youth thinking criticism meant condemnation. Either something was all good or all bad. I now see how weirdly wrong that was.Media literacy in general should be taught. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SecretAsianMan Posted October 29, 2014 I came to post exactly that. Rad. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Henroid Posted October 30, 2014 It's fun to see people react to that with "I used to respect Colbert" and such. They're clearly not interested in a debate or hearing another side out, etc; they just want to shut down a feminist voice and anyone that enables it is an enemy. It's sad and pathetic. I mean, they are. Anita being on Colbert is goddamn amazing-awesome and I'm looking forward to it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juv3nal Posted October 30, 2014 jesus fucking christ when can we start putting these fuckers in jail? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1KV3AfCIAAIvQ4.png:large (forum is not allowing me to post that inline, presumably because of the ':large' bit) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cyborg771 Posted October 30, 2014 Hahaha, sometimes I wish we lived in the world the right wing reactionaries imagine. I'd have a lot more money and power and I could have people silenced for annoying me. Sounds pretty sweet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tanukitsune Posted October 30, 2014 I'm so watching the full episode as soon as it's up on Comedy Central, I was wonder why Twitter was freaking out, this is so great! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Merus Posted October 30, 2014 jesus fucking christ when can we start putting these fuckers in jail? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1KV3AfCIAAIvQ4.png:large (forum is not allowing me to post that inline, presumably because of the ':large' bit) My favourite bit is the Freudian slip of 'dysentery' for 'dissent'. Yep, you know you're shitposting. But of course the flaw in that thinking is that she would have made it to the Colbert Report if they hadn't been so desperate to silence her. Their tactics made her a hero. This isn't a Rosa Parks moment by a long shot, but their desperate attempts to disguise their misogyny compared to Anita's fairly clear, straightforward speaking style made it pretty obvious which way this was going to break if it made it outside. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gormongous Posted October 30, 2014 But of course the flaw in that thinking is that she would have made it to the Colbert Report if they hadn't been so desperate to silence her. Their tactics made her a hero. This isn't a Rosa Parks moment by a long shot, but their desperate attempts to disguise their misogyny compared to Anita's fairly clear, straightforward speaking style made it pretty obvious which way this was going to break if it made it outside. You're absolutely right. Also, Reddit and 8chan love to go on and on about the Streisand Effect that their critics are apparently invoking when they attack them, but I know I have found so many new, interesting, and different voices in the games industry due to the publicity that comes from attempts by #GamerGate to silence them. It makes me feel like they read the Wikipedia article but didn't stop to understand how it could apply equally to them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Merus Posted October 30, 2014 I think they're used to the idea that they're the only ones on the Internet (which is a big fucking red flag, actually). It's 2014 guys. There are a generation of girls on the Internet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blambo Posted October 30, 2014 I've been told that a lot of nonwestern cultures retain a separation of masculine/feminine identity but do not emphasize a power structure inherent in it, or have abstracted feminity and masculinity as collections of traits independent of gender. Can someone who's looked into this kind of thing back this up? I'm Chinese, and I can't say that it's true from the people I've interacted with that identify with the culture. Edit: I guess my real question is, can you retain the aesthetic of politeness/courteous submissiveness stereotypical of feminity while simultaneously promoting a culture that doesn't prescribe behavior based on gender? Is it even worth it? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_spoken_Japanese Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobbyBesar Posted October 30, 2014 If you're wondering whether your criteria above apply to Japanese specifically, I can tell you they do not. Forms of address and levels of formality in Japanese absolutely relate to power and behavior prescription. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperBiasedMan Posted October 30, 2014 In the wake of GamerGate I've actually just followed literally everyone who's being suggested to me that is clearly denouncing it both because I feel like it's supporting them and also because I want to retain the voices that will criticise stuff when it arises. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaveC Posted October 30, 2014 In the wake of GamerGate I've actually just followed literally everyone who's being suggested to me that is clearly denouncing it both because I feel like it's supporting them and also because I want to retain the voices that will criticise stuff when it arises. Heh, same here. I've ended up following a bunch of really interesting people. Thanks, Gamergate! In other news, this is funny and good: http://www.funnyordie.com/articles/ebf5e34fc8/10-hours-of-walking-in-nyc-as-a-man Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolegium Posted October 30, 2014 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_spoken_Japanese A bit tangential, but this reminds me of a near-argument I've had on a forum where another poster thought it was funny that "actor" was used to describe someone who was female. I assumed that this attitude was a result of the poster coming from a non-english speaking background with grammatical genders rather than them just being prescriptively sexist. Turns out I was correct, and we amicably discussed how English is largely gender-neutral and Spanish is heavily gendered. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nachimir Posted October 30, 2014 You're absolutely right. Also, Reddit and 8chan love to go on and on about the Streisand Effect that their critics are apparently invoking when they attack them, but I know I have found so many new, interesting, and different voices in the games industry due to the publicity that comes from attempts by #GamerGate to silence them. It makes me feel like they read the Wikipedia article but didn't stop to understand how it could apply equally to them. It's reminiscent of the FOIA requests for police reports too: like they see themselves as able to poke at things, but never as a part of them. As if they see themselves as fundamentally external to any system they interact with. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Justin Leego Posted October 30, 2014 It's interesting to discuss entrenchment of male and female gender roles within societies that do have fixed grammatical genders in comparison to those that do not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites