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Roderick

Feminism

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Could someone explain the connection to Beyonce to me? I don't get it. :/

 

Beyonce appeared at an awards show or a concert or something a few nights ago with "FEMINIST" in huge bold impact light-up text behind her. You can still see it in the reflection on the stage.

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It's just her attitude towards the whole thing in her tweets that grates on me. She's attacking them saying things like "FUCK YOU PAY ME" and "You don't need anyone's permission to make your games". Which is true of course, but not everyone is in her position, already being an indie game developer, having funding and a bunch of contacts in the industry.

She's fucking exhausted and angry and defensive and utterly sick of this bullshit. How do you expect her to act? No normal human could possibly maintain composure and decorum under the constant hum of death threats and shitty guys showing up at your house to threaten you.

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Younger viewers may also not get that "Fuck you, pay me" is a quote from Goodfellas

 

see also

 

Plus, outside the games field at least, in design, and graphic design in particular, the resistance to contests, competitions and otherwise spec work is well entrenched and understood and has been for a long time. Certainly there are arguments to be made about why it is sometimes okay or whatever, but anyone setting up such a contest needs to understand and address concerns beforehand. A very recent example is from the Dreamfall chapters kickstarter where they quickly walked back a contest to have backer created music in the game.

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I've seen a few bits of seemingly nasty anti-youtuber sentiment popping up in my timeline though.

 

Well, several high-profile YouTubers have more or less not covered themselves in glory on this one - and I think it's also made people aware of the existence of a sort of drossy underlayer of people making misogynistic YouTube videos, whom I wouldn't describe as professional YouTubers but who would clearly like to be and are desperately trying to hoover up viewers (and Patreon funding, in some cases). Some known quantities are behaving badly, some formerly unknown quantities have emerged blinking into the half-light...

 

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Well, yeah. There are several people whose work I'm aware of who certainly seem to cater to the same noxious dudebro demographic, which isn't too surprising because the conventional wisdom seems to state that that's where the money is in video games. Still, it's painting with a wide brush, and the implications of it make me uncomfortable. I mean, it's not like the beat up Anita Sarkeesian game is any more noble because it's a game -- shitty people are going to be shitty, regardless of their role in the video game industry.

 

I'm much happier when the devs and the LPers seem to be on the same page about being in a mutually beneficial relationship.

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Well, LPers aren't in the video games industry - they are in the ad-supported online media industry. They just happen to be playing video games rather than providing make-up tips.

 

Still, sure, #notallyoutubers and all that, but it feels like a fairly low-intensity problem relative to the violent harassment of women and the passive or active encouragement of same by successful Internet personalities.

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I suppose it is kind of a NotAllX problem, but still, it just seems crass and unhelpful to scapegoat a given career for generalized internet misogyny just because a couple of the personalities driving it come from there. And, tangentially, I do think that LPers/video reviewers have a role in the games industry, in just the same way as make-up tips youtubers have a role in the cosmetics industry. They can certainly help to drive people to or away from a given product. I don't think there's any magical difference between games media as represented by a guy with a mic and screen capture software and games media as represented by an established gaming site.

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I believe that the public's inability to see harassment for what it is can be explained or atleast put into perspective by reading the "early evidence" and "theory" portion of Wikipedia's article on Just-World Hypothesis.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

The basic idea is that research has shown that our minds have a tendency to search for excuses to not like someone who is suffering (unless we know that they are being paid for it). One suggested reason is that this happens because we would have a hard time remaining capable if we believed that we may be made to suffer without deserving it (or eventually getting rewarded for it). I recommend giving the "early evidence" and "theory" portion a look-over, it's short.

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And, tangentially, I do think that LPers/video reviewers have a role in the games industry, in just the same way as make-up tips youtubers have a role in the cosmetics industry. They can certainly help to drive people to or away from a given product. I don't think there's any magical difference between games media as represented by a guy with a mic and screen capture software and games media as represented by an established gaming site.

 

Absolutely. Gaming sites are also in the ad-supported online media business. The games industry makes, markets and sells games. There's no shame in not being in the games industry, but it's unhealthy to think you are part of an industry because you say things about it, or because it sends you things or buys ad space (or indeed pays you to feature its games in your LP videos).

 

One difference, though, is that professional gaming sites generally refer to the SPJ or NUJ code of ethics (in English-speaking sites), and as such did not see the invasion into Zoe Quinn's privacy as a suitable topic. Many YouTubers explicitly reject a status as media, and thus the relevance of media ethics to their operations, and as such some YouTubers felt entitled to seek page views by discussing or capitalizing upon that invasion of privacy. #notallyoutubers, but that doesn't seem to me to be the first point of concern here; there's a structural question about media ethics, and what constitutes media.

 

I don't think it's allowable - although I absolutely understand why it might be desirable - for YTers to count as media when credibility is being considered, but as just some guys playing video games when ethics is under the spotlight.

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 With all due respect, why should anyone give a shit who is OK in your book?

 

This question, re: forums, is turtles all the way down.

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Yeah, I certainly would have a hard time respecting any youtuber who took that ethical dodge. It's interesting seeing how ethical policies that used to be dictated by large publications are being fragmented by single-personality media outlets.

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This question, re: forums, is turtles all the way down.

Maybe I'm taking this the wrong way, but in case my words were not clear, I was referring to the prevelant attitude among males that women are not worth respecting until they go the extra mile to prove themselves, and that a woman's worth is determined by what men think of her. Read the post I was replying to and tell me that it that's not what we're dealing with here. A guilty verdict is rendered unto a woman based on scuttlebutt and then someone holds their respect for that woman hostage as if to say, baby, you gotta try harder to get my approval. It's fucking gross!

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There's many people expressing the sentiment of "I have legitimate concerns about the way ZQ or Sarkeesian present their arguments, but the Feminists are ignoring me and calling me misogynist, troll, MRA or worse. Thus, I will shout louder at these people because this is what *I* care about."

 

I wish that instead of just shouting louder and getting more agressive, they would instead look to the left, look to the right, and see what language the people making the same arguments are using. And then, ideally, would turn to these people and say "hey, can you chill the fuck out? Your noise and harassement is making it impossible to have an actual debate."

 

 

This, of course, could swing both ways. If we spend too long conflating everyone as trolls/4chan, a counter-culture ends up being created. We at least have to be clear about WHY this debate isn't interesting when people's lives are being invaded and destroyed.

 

 

 

 

Addendum realisation: "Of course she doesn't deserve to have her life threatened, BUT..." is exactly same as "Now I'm not a racist, BUT...".

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Read the post I was replying to and tell me that it that's not what we're dealing with here.

 

 

Done and done. Sincerely.

 

Which isn't to say I endorse all of it (at all). But it seemed on topic and fair game, as far as those concepts go.

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This, of course, could swing both ways. If we spend too long conflating everyone as trolls/4chan, a counter-culture ends up being created. We at least have to be clear about WHY this debate isn't interesting when people's lives are being invaded and destroyed.

 

I feel like this is probably giving jerks too much credit for even caring. It ought to be blatantly self evident why this debate isn't interesting when people's lives are being invaded and destroyed: people's lives are being invaded and destroyed.

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Reading through the Tweet history, the creation of that is, in part, inspired at Remo's disappointment that they weren't on the spoilered list. 

 

post-33601-0-63486400-1409178659_thumb.jpg

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Done and done. Sincerely.

Which isn't to say I endorse all of it (at all). But it seemed on topic and fair game, as far as those concepts go.

I want to engage in a discussion here but you'll have to elaborate more in your posts. Brevity is cool and all but after this back as forth I am not confident that we understand each other at all.

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That T-shirt is great. I think the best thing about it is the response of "TheAlexLynch97".

 

.@ollymoss fucking blocked

 

Followed in the same minute by.

 

who the fuck is olly moss anyway

 

Secret of comedy, gentles. Timing!

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Reading through the Tweet history, the creation of that is, in part, inspired at Remo's disappointment that they weren't on the spoilered list. 

 

 

The thing is, I want more companies on that list.  I want people to try and boycott them for the dumbest possible reasons because maybe if enough of these assholes stop buying games the demographics will shift and the big developers will make fewer terrible things because their audience has changed.  I don't think either of those will ever happen but I can dream.

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I too would like to see that list expand.

 

 

They get bonus points for referring to the ᴛʜᴇ ɪɴᴅɪᴇ ᴄʟɪǫᴜᴇ. I know someone who also thinks it's real, is desperate to be in it, and is convinced that I am.

 

Fun fact: When Mike Bithell was on stage at a BAFTA event, and someone asked him about ᴛʜᴇ ɪɴᴅɪᴇ ᴄʟɪǫᴜᴇ, a tweet from an audience member scrolled up the cinema screen behind him: "[person] has raised the indie clique issue. Meeting on the sky fortress in an hour, everyone"

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The thing is, I want more companies on that list.  I want people to try and boycott them for the dumbest possible reasons because maybe if enough of these assholes stop buying games the demographics will shift and the big developers will make fewer terrible things because their audience has changed.  I don't think either of those will ever happen but I can dream.

 

I agree, I'd love for that list to just be absurdly long, like to the point you'd have to stop gaming it included so many people.  If for no other reason than to show the shitheads just how far deviated they are from the people they are fans of.

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It's just her attitude towards the whole thing in her tweets that grates on me. She's attacking them saying things like "FUCK YOU PAY ME" and "You don't need anyone's permission to make your games". Which is true of course, but not everyone is in her position, already being an indie game developer, having funding and a bunch of contacts in the industry.

I still stand by my current view on her, but either of those scenarios would be sufficient for me to change my mind. Is that fair?

This kind of bothers me because it seems to come from a mentality that it's impossible to break into the industry, therefore indie developers are either a race of ubermenschen or have connections inside the industry. Besides the obvious distinctions in economic and genderbased privelidge, making something that is culturally resonant or enjoyable to an open minded audience isnt really something that is made by connections or "ins" anymore. Tools and education for games are free, easy and abundant, and you're only limited by your creativity and willingness to create. With outlets constantly looking for new experiences and aesthetics it's hard to go wrong with any single idea.

So when something pops up overblowing the significance of the slight advantage of "knowing a dude at polygon" or worse drawing a line where people are and aren't game developers ("8% for your shitty idea after the REAL guys get paid, you fucking casual") isn't empowering or equalizing, it's quite the opposite

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