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Roderick

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I disagree. The reason trolls, well, troll is that they already view the internet as just words, not people.  Mocking them online will probably have a limited effect at best. 

 

Frederick Douglass was a campaigner against slavery. His advice is specifically about how to deal with those who don't see you as a person.

 

When mocking would be super helpful would be if pop-game culture adopted the outlook.  If you were at a lan party and made some misogynist comment and everyone then made fun of you for it, it would stop people from acting that way online.  The same goes for cons, popular podcasts, etc.  That's what I think anyway.

 

I think this is also absolutely vital. It needs to be inescapable, and easy enough that you don't have to be a wit to do it.

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Frederick Douglass was a campaigner against slavery. His advice is specifically about how to deal with those who don't see you as a person.

But Frederick Douglass didn't have to deal with the internet.  While his advice is sound, we have to acknowledge the difference between the times and how we can adapt best practices to now.  

 

Also, this is completely on the side but it really bugs me when I see vitriol come out of our community against the trolls.  While being angry is important, I think tempering it with action and intelligence is critical.  If we react with the same level of bile, it will only make the fight against harassment worse, not better.  This isn't to say that the trolls don't deserve it but I believe we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard.  

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Also, this is completely on the side but it really bugs me when I see vitriol come out of our community against the trolls.  While being angry is important, I think tempering it with action and intelligence is critical.  If we react with the same level of bile, it will only make the fight against harassment worse, not better.  This isn't to say that the trolls don't deserve it but I believe we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard.  

 

This I also agree with.  I hate all this as much as anyone here but it disturbs me when the almost exact same words that made us* angry to begin with are used by us with some pronouns replaced.  I believe there are times to fight fire with fire but I worry about it when emotions are involved.  It's too easy for it to become an internet arms race where the weapon of choice is vile, hurtful sentiment, even if that sentiment is deserved.  I fear becoming what I hate.

 

*by "us" I don't mean the Idle forums specifically

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The trolls aren't here, so when there's vitriol it's not directly aimed at them. I try to let myself express my emotions here, and then if I confront the trolls I do it with a cooler head. That said, I'm not convinced that anger is a bad thing in either case. Anger is what moves us. I'd hate myself if I wasn't the kind of person who was angry about this stuff.

 

Also when it comes to these people, it's not hard to hold ourselves to a higher standard. As much as I hate these fuckers, I wouldn't dox them and share their personal information publicly.

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The trolls aren't here, so when there's vitriol it's not directly aimed at them. I try to let myself express my emotions here, and then if I confront the trolls I do it with a cooler head. That said, I'm not convinced that anger is a bad thing in either case. Anger is what moves us. I'd hate myself if I wasn't the kind of person who was angry about this stuff.

 

Also when it comes to these people, it's not hard to hold ourselves to a higher standard. As much as I hate these fuckers, I wouldn't dox them and share their personal information publicly.

I completely understand the need to vent but we have to be careful about dehumanizing the trolls.  As disgusting as they are and as awful as their speech is, I really believe that they can be reformed.  The person isn't the enemy: their ignorance and hate is the enemy.  Can you imagine how empty these people's lives must be if they get their kicks mocking and humiliating people?  Maybe I'm being naive but people can, in fact, come around. Hell, look at how the nation has completely turned around on gay rights/marriage.  The progress that's been made would not have been possible without the people who used to be hateful but then had a change of heart.

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The trolls aren't here, so when there's vitriol it's not directly aimed at them. I try to let myself express my emotions here, and then if I confront the trolls I do it with a cooler head. That said, I'm not convinced that anger is a bad thing in either case. Anger is what moves us. I'd hate myself if I wasn't the kind of person who was angry about this stuff.

 

Also when it comes to these people, it's not hard to hold ourselves to a higher standard. As much as I hate these fuckers, I wouldn't dox them and share their personal information publicly.

 

I agree with that (man I just agree with everything here I guess).  Anger is a powerful motivator and can definitely be used in a positive way.  I'm fine with people venting some emotions, I'm just advising some caution.  I worry about it going from someone saying "I wonder how they would feel if it happened to them" to actually trying it.  I don't believe anyone on these forums would do such a thing, but I also know that these forums are not a good representation of the world outside, no matter how much I wish that were the case.

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It seems to me the only solution, if one even exists to all this, is to stop treating it on a case by case basis.  Sure, if a twitter user is harassing someone banning their account for a day is a reprieve, but little more.  If a twitter user says something horrible, why not ban all accounts that follow that person for some amount of time?  Maybe it isn't the greatest idea, but at least it is one that addresses the community rather than just the particular instance.  Social media companies certainly have the power to make changes like this, but not the courage.  They talk so much about changing the mindset of the community, but don't seem to actually address the community in doing so.

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I agree with that (man I just agree with everything here I guess).  Anger is a powerful motivator and can definitely be used in a positive way.  I'm fine with people venting some emotions, I'm just advising some caution.  I worry about it going from someone saying "I wonder how they would feel if it happened to them" to actually trying it.  I don't believe anyone on these forums would do such a thing, but I also know that these forums are not a good representation of the world outside, no matter how much I wish that were the case.

 

I'm pretty upset actually. Usually, I would be like "Oh these trolls are victims themselves and they need to be included so that they can understand how to value and respect others." but today I just don't feel it. I've never made a good decision while angry so I don't make decisions while angry any more, I don't want to be angry, but I am.

The video that R3miel7 posted seemed to have some reasonable ideas to impliment. I still want to kick them out though. I'm keeping the "gamer" title and taking it away from them. I want everyone to be happy, but I'm having a hard time continuing to expect that women and minorities have to take all of this psychological damage while we struggle to come up with a way to apply accountability to these hateful, ignorant bigots in a compassionate manner.

I need to remember that any technological solution will eventually be used against women and minorities though. And I would feel a lot of regret if my efforts to achieve justice made the situation worse. I'm just so frustrated. 

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I completely understand the need to vent but we have to be careful about dehumanizing the trolls.  As disgusting as they are and as awful as their speech is, I really believe that they can be reformed.  The person isn't the enemy: their ignorance and hate is the enemy.  Can you imagine how empty these people's lives must be if they get their kicks mocking and humiliating people?  Maybe I'm being naive but people can, in fact, come around. Hell, look at how the nation has completely turned around on gay rights/marriage.  The progress that's been made would not have been possible without the people who used to be hateful but then had a change of heart.

 

I think there's two things here:

 

1) One of the big things that made the difference is that the entertainment industry collectively decided to start portraying gay and lesbian people in a different, less threatening way. When I say we need to bring fire, I don't mean flames. We are a storytelling species, and our worldview is shaped by the stories we tell about ourselves. I believe satire is one of the most powerful things we do as a species - it has a long tradition of unseating the powerful and threatening the status quo in ways that can't be undone. It's a way of bringing truth - but good satire isn't civil, either.

 

2) There's two different groups involved in the anti-gay movement. When people are confronted with the people they love, that they choose to listen to, come out (because they've been emboldened by the stories they see and see themselves in) and tell them that what they believe is not true. And at that point, they choose: to listen, or to not. Those that choose to listen, they can be reasoned with, they can be brought back to the light, and they deserve understanding and civility because the world is shifting under their feet but they are listening and that is valuable. But the other people... well, if they've chosen not to listen, and they keep choosing not to listen, there's no such thing as the perfect argument that'll change their mind.

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This is infuriating.  Jesus, what a psycho-fuck the ex-bf is (I went and found his post).  We've all been hurt man, most of us don't write annotated manifestos with pictures. 

 

Also, it brings up a more general topic that I don't think we've talked about in here before, which is how much worse an accusation of infidelity is for a woman vs a man. 

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I'm pretty upset actually. Usually, I would be like "Oh these trolls are victims themselves and they need to be included so that they can understand how to value and respect others." but today I just don't feel it. I've never made a good decision while angry so I don't make decisions while angry any more, I don't want to be angry, but I am.

The video that R3miel7 posted seemed to have some reasonable ideas to impliment. I still want to kick them out though. I'm keeping the "gamer" title and taking it away from them. I want everyone to be happy, but I'm having a hard time continuing to expect that women and minorities have to take all of this psychological damage while we struggle to come up with a way to apply accountability to these hateful, ignorant bigots in a compassionate manner.

I need to remember that any technological solution will eventually be used against women and minorities though. And I would feel a lot of regret if my efforts to achieve justice made the situation worse. I'm just so frustrated. 

Stay strong.  It's rough but at least we have each other.  This is a safe place and that's kind of amazing on the internet

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Also, it brings up a more general topic that I don't think we've talked about in here before, which is how much worse an accusation of infidelity is for a woman vs a man. 

 

It seems to me that any accusation made against a woman is somehow seen as worse than that same accusation made against a man.  Most of the time, those kinds of criticisms aren't even leveled at men.

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I saw a suggestion on Twitter that people who support Zoe play Depression Quest today (it's free) so it'll hit the Steam Top 100. I'll be playing it for the first time when I get home.

 

Just played it for first time. Very effective, and especially poignant for me as a close family member has been suffering with depression recently, which is the first time I've really had to deal with it.

 

I forgot to do a Steam review or whatevs, I'll go back and do that now.

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It seems to me that any accusation made against a woman is somehow seen as worse than that same accusation made against a man.  Most of the time, those kinds of criticisms aren't even leveled at men.

Eh, I'd be careful about sweeping statements like that.  It's a good way to get MRAs to point out the discrimination against men vis-a-vis domestic violence.  

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It seems to me the only solution, if one even exists to all this, is to stop treating it on a case by case basis.  Sure, if a twitter user is harassing someone banning their account for a day is a reprieve, but little more.  If a twitter user says something horrible, why not ban all accounts that follow that person for some amount of time?  Maybe it isn't the greatest idea, but at least it is one that addresses the community rather than just the particular instance.  Social media companies certainly have the power to make changes like this, but not the courage.  They talk so much about changing the mindset of the community, but don't seem to actually address the community in doing so.

 

I've seen a couple of ideas like that, such as this list here.  I particularly like the one about auto-blocking someone if they've been blocked by a number of other people you follow.  And yes I'm contradicting my earlier post about how ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away.

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It seems to me that any accusation made against a woman is somehow seen as worse than that same accusation made against a man.  Most of the time, those kinds of criticisms aren't even leveled at men.

 

When a guy does it, he's a playa.  When a girl does it, she's a whore.  One is commended, the other reviled.  What's the difference?  Fuck if I know.

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But Frederick Douglass didn't have to deal with the internet.  While his advice is sound, we have to acknowledge the difference between the times and how we can adapt best practices to now.  

 

I think it's worth remembering that most research into online group dynamics finds that it's not much different to group dynamics as it's been traditionally understood. The key difference is that shame is harder to deploy.

 

The other major difference is that most social software is built by people (who are often Californian for some reason) who deliberately design social software that does not allow anyone to take control of the conversation, and then are surprised when it turns out the community has no way to defend itself from internal threats by people using the software in intended ways. And then they write a paper, and the next group that comes along doesn't read it. So most of what we know as how the Internet works is the way it is because the Internet has traditionally never had a way for the community to collectively enforce its own standards, except of course by flaming.

 

But underneath all that, people are people, and the basics don't change.

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I've never commented on this thread, as I don't really have any intelligent thoughts on feminism, but my work colleagues were talking about the tumblr hashtag 'Women Against feminism' and thought you'd like to see it: http://womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/

 

The worst:

 

tumblr_naa6ppmj7h1syitgfo1_500.jpg

 

Sorry if you guys have already seen/heard of this.

 

After reading the last page or so, I guess I'm playing depression quest when I get home.

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When a guy does it, he's a playa.  When a girl does it, she's a whore.  One is commended, the other reviled.  What's the difference?  Fuck if I know.

1. Men basically made those rules.

2. Humans have long gestation/rearing periods.

 

(I'm of course only partly serious. The impact of human reproductive biology on social and cultural structures is interesting, but terribly complicated.)

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Eh, I'd be careful about sweeping statements like that.  It's a good way to get MRAs to point out the discrimination against men vis-a-vis domestic violence.  

 

Good point, I let myself get caught up in the wave a little bit.

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Oh, Depression Quest is the Twine game that crosses out certain interactions that are reasonable in the circumstance but not something the protagonist is in the state of mind to be able to do! I saw a screenshot of that somewhere, and that solves a big problem I've had in a long-term project I've had bubbling away where the protagonist is a cult member and I need to show her fucked-up thought patterns.

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Oh, Depression Quest is the Twine game that crosses out certain interactions that are reasonable in the circumstance but not something the protagonist is in the state of mind to be able to do! I saw a screenshot of that somewhere, and that solves a big problem I've had in a long-term project I've had bubbling away where the protagonist is a cult member and I need to show her fucked-up thought patterns.

 

I downloaded it this morning, but won't have a chance to play it until this evening.  I wasn't aware that was one of the ways it presented itself narratively/mechanically.  That's fascinating and brilliant.

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Black Lightning will probably be a very gamey game, and it is delicious irony that I'm getting interaction tips from something dipsticks like TotalBiscuit are quick to dismiss as not a game.

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