Feminism

[Hermie]

In regards to the original question: "Can an object [drawing] be objectified?" Our brains are really good at filling in the blank spaces, so if we see on the screen something that looks and sounds like a woman, our brain identifies it as such, even if semi-abstracted.

 

To that point, while I can't say you can objectify the single character on screen, you can certainly objectify women based on their depiction on screen, be it through film, cartoon or other mediums. As Argobot points out above, a lot of porn contain unrealistic images of both sex and bodies, and I don't feel like drawn porn should be excluded from that criticism. Even if no woman was filmed to create it, doesn't mean it doesn't perpetuate the myth of women as gatekeepers, for example.

 

In fact, you can even see the direct influence of their depiction in what Chris points out:

 

You see this in interviews with guys who have anime "girlfriends," often they'll talk about how animated porn is superior because the women's bodies are perfect, not like real women, and they don't complain. 

 

This is a really dangerous attitude, because these men decide in their heads what women should and shouldn't be, based on what they see in fiction that is made to only appeal to them. And so, when people criticize this depiction and warped world view, they get defensive. Just look at the Dragon's Crown debacle. And notice that whenever people speak out about feminism and misogyny in video games, they get harassed in the comments and on Twitter by a bunch of white dudes with anime girls as avatars.

 

 

 

But as Rodi points out above, you can't through everything under the banner "anime porn". There's interactive fiction that has really complex stories and characters, that also has sex scenes. There's Yaoi, soft gay erotica aimed primarily at women, and so on. We can't chastise porn for generalizing women and then generalize it ourselves.

[JonCole]

God, male gamers are the goddamn worst -

 

[BobbyBesar]

This is veers into some really potentially gross territory, but I wish there was porn meant for teenagers. Not underage or anything; I mean we already know that kids look at porn because it's incredibly easy for them to access it. We should at least present them with regulated porn that doesn't give them unrealistic, misogynistic ideas about body image or what sex is supposed to be like.

You aren't the only one.

 

Apparently, her project actually launched! makelovenotporn.tv (I'm assuming it's very NSFW).

 

It's a difficult question: how do you promote a healthy relationship with sex. I.e. not something that's scary or evil, something that's a lot of fun but that also has a lot of potential emotional and physical repercussions, and so shouldn't be taken too lightly.

 

For the record, some of the more "artistic" oriented porn sites do have seem to have porn that's less hostile to women than most of the stuff that's on the internet, but even then much of the material still falls into many of the usual traps.

 

(also: http://loveyourbody.nowfoundation.org/)

[SecretAsianMan]

Earlier this week, Robin Williams died.  So naturally, sections of the internet responded by harassing his daughter.  This led to her decision to leave Twitter.  This in turn led Twitter to vow to improve their policies.  I'm not very optimistic that Twitter will actually do much though.  Mostly I'm mad that it took this long for them to even say anything at all.

[itsamoose]

Earlier this week, Robin Williams died.  So naturally, sections of the internet responded by harassing his daughter.  This led to her decision to leave Twitter.  This in turn led Twitter to vow to improve their policies.  I'm not very optimistic that Twitter will actually do much though.  Mostly I'm mad that it took this long for them to even say anything at all.

 

Stories like this always put me in a bad mood.  Every time I read about or see women (in particular, but others as well) being treated like that on the internet I get completely enraged, which ultimately accomplishes nothing, and my heart breaks a little.  Having seen so much of it in recent years, and for it to be largely ignored by companies like twitter and Facebook, I fear myself and others are simply becoming indifferent to it.  Toxicity like that is the reason I stopped using twitter, even though none of it was aimed at me personally.  Hopefully this leads to some meaningful policy changes, and good on her for responding to this kind of barbarism gracefully.  If I were in her shoes, I certainly would not have.

[Merus]

Like I say all the time on Twitter, people have nowhere better to go to get what they want from Twitter, and trolls look at ads too.

 

After someone high-profile is harassed off Twitter, Twitter always release a statement that sounds like they'll do something about harassment but actually don't have to do something useful. And they don't respond at all to people who don't have the ability to get mainstream media articles written about them.

[Ben X]

Interesting that this is in the Feminism thread. Do you think this would have been less likely to happen to a son of Robin Williams? Or has there been an overtly gender-related aspect to it that I haven't seen (probably from not wanting to see too many details of the nasty shit they were sending her)?

 

I'm not sure about labelling the abusers as sociopaths, though, as that article does. I'm not a psychologist, but it seems all we know about them is that they're sadistic, which I don't think is enough to diagnose them with a personality disorder. They could well just be nasty little shits. But perhaps that's how "sociopath" is being used now?

 

There was a minor storm over here when shitty free paper The Metro put his method of suicide in their front page headline (thankfully I've managed to avoid being exposed to that knowledge). Apparently other shitty tabloids like The Mirror were linking the suicide to his financial difficulties, which goes against the Samaritans guidelines, a basic understanding of depression and, of course, basic human decency.

[Codicier]

Interesting that this is in the Feminism thread. Do you think this would have been less likely to happen to a son of Robin Williams? Or has there been an overtly gender-related aspect to it that I haven't seen (probably from not wanting to see too many details of the nasty shit they were sending her)?

I may be wrong but I think the watchdog/ferguson article that seems to have triggered the harassment of Danielle that John Cole mentions also had Charlie Halls name attached to it. If he received less harassment than she did over it we could perhaps draw a somewhat raw conclusion regarding who trolls will target.

I think the term sociopath is actually probably being correctly (if perhaps a little over dramatically) used as a shorthand for someone who is showing a chronic lack of empathy..

[JonCole]

My perception is that Charlie Hall received less heat over that story than Danielle. Of course, the scumbags who feel it's their duty to trash people over articles like that also sometimes felt the need to highlight her homosexuality, which feels like a more targeted attack on gender.

 

In other news, Oxford Dictionary decided to define mansplain and really could have saved us a lot of argument if they just did this a month ago -

 

[SecretAsianMan]

Interesting that this is in the Feminism thread. Do you think this would have been less likely to happen to a son of Robin Williams? Or has there been an overtly gender-related aspect to it that I haven't seen (probably from not wanting to see too many details of the nasty shit they were sending her)?

 

I'm not sure about labelling the abusers as sociopaths, though, as that article does. I'm not a psychologist, but it seems all we know about them is that they're sadistic, which I don't think is enough to diagnose them with a personality disorder. They could well just be nasty little shits. But perhaps that's how "sociopath" is being used now?

 

I think a son of Robin Williams would still be subject to harassment (because this is the internet after all) but I don't think he'd receive nearly as many rape/death threats.  I put it in the Feminism thread partly because of that and also because it took something like this for Twitter to at least partially recognize there's a huge problem with abuse, most of which is aimed at women.  Like Merus said though, I don't expect much to actually happen apart from some empty words and promises.

 

As for calling people sociopaths, hardly anyone uses the term properly or in accordance with a clinical definition.  It's basically just become another way of calling people crazy or assholes.  Psychopath is the same way, although some medical definitions equate sociopathy and psychopathy.

[Codicier]

I think a son of Robin Williams would still be subject to harassment (because this is the internet after all) but I don't think he'd receive nearly as many rape/death threats.  I put it in the Feminism thread partly because of that and also because it took something like this for Twitter to at least partially recognize there's a huge problem with abuse, most of which is aimed at women.  Like Merus said though, I don't expect much to actually happen apart from some empty words and promises.

 

As for calling people sociopaths, hardly anyone uses the term properly or in accordance with a clinical definition.  It's basically just become another way of calling people crazy or assholes.  Psychopath is the same way, although some medical definitions equate sociopathy and psychopathy.

 

Honestly I think much of the behaviour displayed by trolls on twitter could easily fit the definition of sociopathic behaviour, 

 

Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/) (or sociopathy /ˈsoʊsiəˌpæθi/) is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocialbehavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior

 

I know it's a serious label to throw about, but honestly it feels like when this behaviour is sustained for long period the correct response is to treat it as serious problem and label it as such.

[SecretAsianMan]

I'm not a medical professional by any means, but I'm hesitant to apply the label sociopath to internet trolls.  They may be jerks because they can hide behind a shield of anonymity, but they might not act that way in real life.  There's no way to know for certain, but I think a distinction should be made between people who are incapable of feeling empathy because of an actual condition and people who are just assholes.

[R3miel7]

I'm not a medical professional by any means, but I'm hesitant to apply the label sociopath to internet trolls.  They may be jerks because they can hide behind a shield of anonymity, but they might not act that way in real life.  There's no way to know for certain, but I think a distinction should be made between people who are incapable of feeling empathy because of an actual condition and people who are just assholes.

I agree.  Unfortunately, even if we're careful, the nature of the internet leads us to naturally be more confrontational on the internet than we would be IRL.  Some people may just not really think of user names and text as real live people which enables such nasty comments.  Labeling trolls as sociopaths implies that the culture can't be changed and I really disagree with that notion.  

[BobbyBesar]

Interesting that this is in the Feminism thread. Do you think this would have been less likely to happen to a son of Robin Williams? Or has there been an overtly gender-related aspect to it that I haven't seen (probably from not wanting to see too many details of the nasty shit they were sending her)?

A recent TL;DR podcast addressed this. To whit: yes, it's safe to assume that women are harassed more for the same activities.

 

People who are mean on twitter are probably not sociopaths. Although I wouldn't be surprised if in another 20 years, the DSM invented another disorder that basically amounts to "online troll disorder": a sliding scale of inability to emphathize with people who you never physically see.

[Twig]

I've been called a sociopath for trolling on the internet before.

 

Uh I mean I've never trolled anyone in my life.

 

Anyway it happened frequently enough when I was younger, but I actually really feel bad whenever I think I've hurt someone. I think I honestly just didn't realize how hurtful it could be back then, and that's why I did it. Not out of lack of empathy or anything.

 

That said, I don't think I was the typical internet troll. I think a lot of them - especially those who throw about rape or death threats - are aware of how hurtful their words are and use them because they want to be hurtful.

[Codicier]

I don't think we necessarily should label Trolls as Sociopaths, but i do think it's useful to label the behaviour as sociopathic when it isn't a isolated incident.

 

I think what I'm trying to say there's value in saying "this person is consistently acting in certain way that matches the symptoms of this condition". It doesn't mean we are making a definitive diagnosis but by using a label it encourages us to treat the behaviour as problem, which in turn imply a need to for it to be controlled by the individual concerned. 

 

Iirc the problem is the consensus on this is that true sociopathy is a mix of nature and nurture. So the actual levels of potential sociopaths in the general population is actually probably a lot higher than most people think because unless those individuals are also exposed to certain environmental and behavioural factors it won't develop.

People sometimes bring up the fact that many trolls are "kids" as a reason to see this behaviour as some sort of youthful aberration, but in many ways its absolutely the worst time that anyone who has any of the genetic predispositions to be exposed to it.

[JonCole]

Danielle wrote an article on Polygon about women writers for film, tv, and games - http://www.polygon.com/2014/8/15/5995187/guardians-of-the-galaxy-nicole-perlman

 

It's really great to see women coming up in that space, particularly in the success of Guardians of the Galaxy as it's an indisputably well received film. Nonetheless, the people who managed to bear a lot of the backlash on Twitter from that Rise of the Tomb Raider exclusivity deal were the writer Rhianna Pratchett (mentioned in the article) and the voice actress for Lara, Camilla Luddington. It seems that even as women are recognized for their skill and hired for higher profile projects, they're still subject to manbabies who see them as targets for any problems they have with the media itself.

[Bjorn]

Danielle wrote an article on Polygon about women writers for film, tv, and games - http://www.polygon.com/2014/8/15/5995187/guardians-of-the-galaxy-nicole-perlman

 

It's really great to see women coming up in that space, particularly in the success of Guardians of the Galaxy as it's an indisputably well received film. Nonetheless, the people who managed to bear a lot of the backlash on Twitter from that Rise of the Tomb Raider exclusivity deal were the writer Rhianna Pratchett (mentioned in the article) and the voice actress for Lara, Camilla Luddington. It seems that even as women are recognized for their skill and hired for higher profile projects, they're still subject to manbabies who see them as targets for any problems they have with the media itself.

 

Wait, what?  Pratchett and Luddington were getting shit because of decisions completely out of their control that a bunch of men in suits made?

[JonCole]

Wait, what?  Pratchett and Luddington were getting shit because of decisions completely out of their control that a bunch of men in suits made?

 

Yeah (see below). Of course, when I mentioned this in the Polygon comments a Strawman expert was quick to point out that male CD employees were also probably getting harassed on Twitter, which is funny because Pratchett and Luddington aren't even CD employees and are instead freelance contractors who have even less sway than whatever CD employees you might be able to find.

 

[Bjorn]

I really fucking hate people.

[Ben X]

A recent TL;DR podcast addressed this. To whit: yes, it's safe to assume that women are harassed more for the same activities.

 

Absolutely, I was just wondering if in this case there was anything specific. As I say, I was following the whole thing with my hands over my eyes, so I missed the rape threat stuff.

 

I also missed any mention of Charlie Hall/Danielle getting harassed. Where did Jon mention that?

 

I'm surprised to learn that sociopathy and psychopathy as terms can be interchangeable. My basic understanding (which I probably got from a film because I'm a fucking idiot) was that psychopaths don't/can't understand ethics or the rules of society, whereas sociopaths do understand but they don't give a shit.

[Twig]

I'm surprised to learn that sociopathy and psychopathy as terms can be interchangeable. My basic understanding (which I probably got from a film because I'm a fucking idiot) was that psychopaths don't/can't understand ethics or the rules of society, whereas sociopaths do understand but they don't give a shit.

Haha, geez, I actually thought it was the opposite! Psychopaths don't care, sociopaths can't care.

 

Awkwaaaaaaard.

 

EDIT: This, which is apparently an opinion piece, at least outlines the similarities between the two. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wicked-deeds/201401/how-tell-sociopath-psychopath

 

I'm sure someone more informed can find or provide a much better explanation. I just did a quick search for "sociopath vs psychopath".

 

Also sorry this is veering off topic. ):

 

I don't have much to say on the topic of Yet More Twitter Harassments. It continues to be depressing and infuriating.

[JonCole]

I actually mentioned it in a different thread, mostly because I was complaining about something that happened to me rather than something feminism-specific. Here's the article and here's my post -
 

So, a bunch of people were harassing Danielle on Twitter for writing that Watch Dogs/Ferguson story on Polygon (a discussion I don't really want to have here, so please don't try to engage me on this). She was gonna jump off Twitter, and I was just trying to send good vibes. Of course, you're not allowed to do that on the internet, so someone had to shit on me for it. I responded to him specifically with a pithy remark that wasn't particularly offensive, and blocked him.
 
No big deal, worse things have happened to me. Then, some dude decides to imgur my little exchange and post it to his goonsquad of shitty manbaby followers who claimed I was whiteknighting and trying to get in her pants (they put it less kindly). I said that she was LGBT and I was married, which I guess I shouldn't have even done but I'm feeling a bit emotionally frayed after all this Ferguson shit. He then responded saying that I'm cuckolded by my wife, and that I then proceeded to kill my wife and bury her in the backyard and now I'm whiteknighting to make myself feel better.
 
I have to say, I've seen people treated like this before but it's never happened to me personally. Didn't quite expect it to upset me as much as it has. Anyways, I just wanted to get it off my chest because it's bothering me so much. Fuck the internet sometimes. On the bright side, I've got to try out the abuse/harassment reporting tool on Twitter. Protip: it's not very good.

 

Also, note that the article's headline was what was throwing people off so much and it has since been changed. It was previously something like "What Watch Dogs can teach us about Ferguson", though don't quote me on that.

[chummer]

There's a mini cottage industry of articles written by young women in relationships with men whose only concept of sex comes from what they've seen in porn and how it leads to unsatisfying, sometimes degrading situations.

 

Does anyone have links to some particularly good articles? I've gotten a few through Googling, but if there's ones that have particularly resonated w/ some of ya'll, I'd love to read them.

[JonCole]

And in today's games industry harassment -