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Roderick

Feminism

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I think the "most diverse" games podcast out there that I've listened to is Daft Souls. It's a good listen, and one of the usual guests Keza MacDonald (she used to work for IGN UK and now for Kotaku UK) pointed out something quite important. Most females don't get their information about games from traditional gaming media, like sites and magazines and to a lesser extent I assume podcasts (although she didn't mention that).

Rather they get it from things like Tumblr and social media. Obviously there's no causal link known, but they postulated that traditionally those sites/magazines are fronted by men and so could be off putting. 

I don't know if I agree with their assessment as much of the people behind these things aren't really known more than words on a page to the casual reader. Also I'm not sure that being fronted by a man is enough to put off tons of people. It's probably more to do with women and girls preferring social media to standard media, but I'm just guessing there.

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I don't think that it should stop us trying to find ways to make the community more welcoming to people not in the homogeneity, but I do think having Danielle as a cast regular is going to help in making it more face-value inviting to a diverse audience. There are so many all male podcasts on the net that (intentionally or not) don't care about being for anyone other than straight white dudes, that I think it's a bit of a stereotype that people might filter out.

Also this has been mentioned by other people before, but I really enjoy hearing a non-dude voice on the podcast - it makes me uncomfortable in a non-specific way to hear a discussion with only guys contributing, the same way I felt when working at an all male workplace or going to a mostly white school.

The fact that Danielle is a total badass is icing on the cake.

We definitely shouldn't stop.  It's more that we just have to accept that growing our community (especially a diverse community) won't happen all at once.  The Thumbs have already made a great podcast so now it's up to us to help spread it around word-of-mouth style.  Also: hell yeah Danielle is a total badass.

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probably the most homogeneous following out there. Giant Bomb has a shitton of female listeners but is exclusively run by white dudes. 

Do you actually have any evidence from any of these other places that either of these things are true? By which I mean, how do you know other gaming podcasts don't have similar demographics? Giant Bomb's audience is massively larger than ours, so it has a lot more women in it, but do you know how that falls on a proportional basis? (I'm not defending our numbers, just wondering where those assumptions come from.)

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Sometimes I read this thread, and I just wish there were more women withing this community. 

 

I just told Capt. Hastings that the boys in the Feminism-thread were whining about there not being enough girls in the community and she was like "They should cheer up, don't they know that all the girls on the internet are boys and all the boys on the internet are girls?"

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The only evidence I have for the first statement is after doing the idle thumbs survey, it said that 95% of the members were similar to me (saying it's the most homogeneous was exaggeration, I have no evidence for that! I just thought 95% white male was pretty darn high.) I don't really know if other podcasts don't have similar demographics - like I said in the post; traditional gaming media tends to have a more male following any way, so it wouldn't surprise me if they do. 

 

The other statement about Giant Bomb's readership isn't backed up by anything more than anecdotes from visiting their forums, and of course more members = more diversity by simple statistics.

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 I'd say the same thing about the Idle Thumbs podcast as well, that, despite featuring very good people, it's another podcast with white dudes (until lately of course). In a way, Idle Thumbs and its community is the most open boy club to exist on the internet. We're not telling girls to get away from our tree house, but we're not inviting them or considering them coming to our tree house.

 

 

This is really an issue of podcasting in general, in a lot of ways.  Of the most popular podcasts, roughly 70 percent have male only hosts, 10 percent have female only hosts, 10 percent have mixed gender hosts and 10 percent have no host (think news aggregation 'casts).  The male voice isn't just dominant in the podcasting world, it's almost the only voice you'll hear.  Given that most podcasts cover focused or niche areas, that has to end up affecting both the total audience and the active fan audience, right?

 

That's disturbing, but it is one of those problems where there's no clear solution.  Find podcasts you like hosted by women, and support those casts?  Put pressure on existing male only casts to add female hosts when the opportunity arrives?  Something like the second happened with the Thumbs, but in the most positive way.  Danielle as a guest was fabulous, and we all made it clear how much we liked having her on the show.  She brought a great new perspective, not only because she was a woman, but also because she's a journalist with different gaming tastes and with a quite different background than all the guys (as highlighted in the last cast with the brief discussion on all the different kinds of places she's worked). 

 

But then you see what happens when people put pressure on Giant Bomb to hire a woman, and the Internet explodes. 

 

(same goes with the LGBQT thread, but that thread at least was started by a queer lady).

 

I just want to highlight this real quick, and say to be careful about making assumptions that that almost all the people posting there fall under the hetero-brella.  Unless a person is discussing their relationships or private life, there's no need to present in a forum where you fall in the sexuality spectrum.  Demographically, the majority of people do identify as hetero, but there are likely people posting in or reading that thread who aren't, but who don't want to publicly state here how they identify.  There are a lot of people on this forum who I have never seen bring up a partner or relationship.  I don't know how they identify, and I've tried to break myself of automatically assuming I know what someone's sexuality is if they haven't explicitly stated it.

 

Okay, back to the rest of your post, part of your it seems to be lamenting that this a thread that is mostly dudes talking about feminism.  But that's important too, particularly when you can see over the history of this thread men learning and refining their opinions about various things.  Expressing confusion about a particular subject, and getting more information and viewpoints on it.  Yes, it would be great if there were more women in this community and in this thread.  But there's also that idea that it isn't a woman's job to educate men about feminism and sexist issues, that there is plenty of information and evidence out there if a man wants to learn.  A thread like this is (hopefully) spreading accurate and good information about feminism and sexist issues.  As men, we don't want to put our words in women's mouths about their experiences, but we also don't want to insist that they alone shoulder the burden of proving that sexism exists and that feminism is still a needed force in our society.

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I just want to highlight this real quick, and say to be careful about making assumptions that that almost all the people posting there fall under the hetero-brella.  Unless a person is discussing their relationships or private life, there's no need to present in a forum where you fall in the sexuality spectrum.  Demographically, the majority of people do identify as hetero, but there are likely people posting in or reading that thread who aren't, but who don't want to publicly state here how they identify.  There are a lot of people on this forum who I have never seen bring up a partner or relationship.  I don't know how they identify, and I've tried to break myself of automatically assuming I know what someone's sexuality is if they haven't explicitly stated it.

 

Like I said, that post was a stream of consciousness and didn't take that in consideration, so i deeply apologize if I've insulted anyone who frequents that thread.

 

 

But there's also that idea that it isn't a woman's job to educate men about feminism and sexist issues, that there is plenty of information and evidence out there if a man wants to learn.  A thread like this is (hopefully) spreading accurate and good information about feminism and sexist issues.  As men, we don't want to put our words in women's mouths about their experiences, but we also don't want to insist that they alone shoulder the burden of proving that sexism exists and that feminism is still a needed force in our society.

 

That's...not my point at all. My point was just lamenting the fact that the lack of women (and minorities in general) within this forum and community in general is troubling since we don't get a wide range of voices on these issues from people who actually are affected by those issues. To put an example, if someone made a thread about Latino/Hispanic issues in America, I'd also feel kinda weird. I'd see mostly white guys talking about something that they may understand, but little to no actual Latino/Hispanic people talking about those things. It's just weird and sad to me. I can't even describe it really, the fact minority issues are considered by a committee of mostly white, well-meaning white dudes is just a weird image. I guess in the end, my post's point is that I just wish there was more diversity in this forum, but I have no absolute idea how to reach that goal at the moment. 

 

I just told Capt. Hastings that the boys in the Feminism-thread were whining about there not being enough girls in the community and she was like "They should cheer up, don't they know that all the girls on the internet are boys and all the boys on the internet are girls?"

 

Uh what? That sounds like a very mean-spirited and hand-wavey thing to say, from you and that other person. I'm just going to assume that you're not bothered that people are clamoring for more diversity, because if you are, then shit...

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I didn't find it mean-spirited at all. I thought it was just a silly joke.

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Uh what? That sounds like a very mean-spirited and hand-wavey thing to say, from you and that other person. I'm just going to assume that you're not bothered that people are clamoring for more diversity, because if you are, then shit...

I'm glad you said this so that I would know that there was a need for clarification.

I'm not sure what seems mean-spirited or hand-wavey about it though. Can you phrase it as a question?

I might be doing those things without knowing so.

I know this probably looks like concern-trolling, but I just don't want to make any assumptions about what you think I'm saying with the post you quoted.

Edit: I can see it being hand-wavy, but I think that we may have different opinions about what the comment is intending to dismiss.

It wasn't intended as mean-spirited, but feel free to say why it is.

2nd edit: Now I'm not sure I even know what being mean-spirited is. If it's not liking someone, then it definitely wasn't that.

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That's...not my point at all. My point was just lamenting the fact that the lack of women (and minorities in general) within this forum and community in general is troubling since we don't get a wide range of voices on these issues from people who actually are affected by those issues. To put an example, if someone made a thread about Latino/Hispanic issues in America, I'd also feel kinda weird. I'd see mostly white guys talking about something that they may understand, but little to no actual Latino/Hispanic people talking about those things. It's just weird and sad to me. I can't even describe it really, the fact minority issues are considered by a committee of mostly white, well-meaning white dudes is just a weird image.

 

I think we are mostly in agreement here.  I'm sure it is weird to see a room full of dudes discussing feminism.  To go along with your example of Latino/Hispanic topics, every single article or video I see about the recent immigrant child crisis that doesn't include a Central American voice disturbs the fuck out of me, because it's instantly so clear what an incomplete, and often inherently biased, picture that story contains. 

 

 

I guess in the end, my post's point is that I just wish there was more diversity in this forum, but I have no absolute idea how to reach that goal at the moment. 

 

I guess that's what I was trying to address, that this thread, as imperfect or weird as it may be, is better than silence.  And it represents the general Thumbs community as caring about these issues and self-defining as a community that wants diverse opinions.  A step on the way to more diversity is to create gaming communities that aren't toxic and antagonistic to people who aren't white dudes.  I hope that we are one of those rare gaming communities, and that this thread has helped it be even better. 

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I guess that's what I was trying to address, that this thread, as imperfect or weird as it may be, is better than silence.  And it represents the general Thumbs community as caring about these issues and self-defining as a community that wants diverse opinions.  A step on the way to more diversity is to create gaming communities that aren't toxic and antagonistic to people who aren't white dudes.  I hope that we are one of those rare gaming communities, and that this thread has helped it be even better. 

 

I agree and think that the existence of this thread, coupled with the enthusiasm of its contributors at the presence of female voices, is the strongest force for the diversification of this forum. As much as I'd love to beat the streets recruiting for Idle Thumbs, it's better for these things to happen organically by just making this forum the safest space on the internet.

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That's...not my point at all. My point was just lamenting the fact that the lack of women (and minorities in general) within this forum and community in general is troubling since we don't get a wide range of voices on these issues from people who actually are affected by those issues. To put an example, if someone made a thread about Latino/Hispanic issues in America, I'd also feel kinda weird. I'd see mostly white guys talking about something that they may understand, but little to no actual Latino/Hispanic people talking about those things. It's just weird and sad to me. I can't even describe it really, the fact minority issues are considered by a committee of mostly white, well-meaning white dudes is just a weird image. I guess in the end, my post's point is that I just wish there was more diversity in this forum, but I have no absolute idea how to reach that goal at the moment. 

 

I actually find that kind of thing really interesting.  I like hearing people who aren't actually a member of a gender/race/whatever group talking about how they view issues pertaining to said group, so long as the discussion is productive and not just hateful speech.  It helps me understand the point of view I don't or can't have.  For example, I'm usually less interested in hearing or seeing an Asian talk about Asian issues in the US because I already have that perspective.  I find it much more interesting to hear someone who's not Asian talk about it because it often reveals to me things that might not have occurred to me or sometimes even helps me distill my thoughts more.  Obviously that doesn't mean I don't want people who are in that group to talk about it, I'm just saying that hearing the other side's opinion can also be very informative.

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Somehow I missed that a Voice for Men held an MRA conference in Detroit a month ago.  Shit got weird right before it happened, with AVM claiming that they needed to raise $25K for additional security at the last minute, because the hotel had reported death threats to both them and the police.  But when multiple people attempted to verify the claims of threats, neither the hotel nor the police knew anything about them.  Then at the very last second, the hotel refused to host the event, for undisclosed reasons.  You can read an account of the conference from the perspective of a female reporter for Time here.  It sounds like they were as polite as they could be, but still managed to show their reprehensible side.

 

I went down this rabbit hole because CNN decided to run an MRA apologist condemning sexism for the suspension of Stephen Smith from his  ESPN tv show after his mouth went and said what his brain thinks.  He actually brought up the AVM conference as proof the media ignores the plight of men (the Detroit Free Times article he linked to as proof has been deleted from the site). 

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My favourite thing about the MRA conference: they claimed before the conference that they were moving to a new hotel because it had more room, and then after the conference they claimed it was because the previous hotel had misandrists on staff that cancelled their booking.

 

Generally, I believe the means justifies the ends; if you lie about little things, you'll probably also lie about the big things.

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Surely with that many ᴀʟᴘʜᴀ ᴍᴀʟᴇs in one place, no security would be necessary? It'd be like, the world's foremost concentration of independent, self-reliant but not-too-intimidating deadliness?

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Happily, the poster in question now has pro bono legal advice, because there are apparently quite a lot of lawyers whose hobby is defending internet users from censorious dickbags. 

 

Randy Queen is also getting a crash course in the Streisand Effect, which is nice.

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Randy Queen is also getting a crash course in the Streisand Effect, which is nice.

 

It's better than the Streisand Effect, it introduced me to a cool Tumblr, and taught me that this artist is a total douche who shouldn't be supported if I ever run into his work. 

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That tumblr reaffirmed my childhood hatred of comics. The men look stupid in most of them (them damn jaw lines), but the women are utterly ridiculous.

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I have a question that's related tangentially to a discussion in the Fan Fiction section. I was involved (well, I refused to give an opinion considering I haven't formed one yet) in a discussion at work on porn, but more specifically anime porn. One of my colleagues problems with it was that it objectifies women.

So after thinking about it, is it possible to objectify an object? A drawing is by definition an object, but it's of something that is representing a person, and if it was a real person in that situation, it would be pure objectification. I'm a little confused about this and I'm finding it hard to make my mind up on whether it's a valid problem with anime porn.

What do others think of this?

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It's generally illegal to represent children in anime in a pornographic context because it still "counts" as real enough, so by that logic I'd imagine that women can still be objectified in anime despite not being real.

 

That said, I don't really fully submit to that logic, but it may help as a point of reference for your thinking.

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