Feminism

[Danielle]

I just spent the majority of the afternoon reading the last 40+ pages of this thread, and I'm positively tickled by the caliber of conversation. No, really, I argue with people about feminism all day long on the internet, and I think this is the only public forum I've ever been to where people were respectful, through and through.

 

On hiring women game journalists...

 

I cannot comment on the GB stuff. But I can say that when I was hired at Polygon, my direct supervisor was very clear, honest and upfront with me about the degree of personal hate I would receive, being 1. A woman with opinions on the internet 2. A person with social justice, feminism, and progressive ideas on the brain and 3. one of them queers (my words, not his!). He was also very clear and upfront about his commitment to supporting me through all of that hate, which I will always appreciate.

 

Is it completely crazy to not want to hire women entirely because of the internet rage show that will inevitably follow (which I'm not saying is the case with GB, I have no idea what their hiring process looks like)? Maybe not. But it is cowardly, lazy and potentially dangerous to your business, if you have any interest in expanding your reach beyond one very specific demographic.

 

Every day, I'm grateful that I get to do this. I just wish I could share it with more women, people of color, and LGBT folks.

[Argobot]

I just spent the majority of the afternoon reading the last 40+ pages of this thread, and I'm positively tickled by the caliber of conversation. No, really, I argue with people about feminism all day long on the internet, and I think this is the only public forum I've ever been to where people were respectful, through and through.

On hiring women game journalists...

I cannot comment on the GB stuff. But I can say that when I was hired at Polygon, my direct supervisor was very clear, honest and upfront with me about the degree of personal hate I would receive, being 1. A woman with opinions on the internet 2. A person with social justice, feminism, and progressive ideas on the brain and 3. one of them queers (my words, not his!). He was also very clear and upfront about his commitment to supporting me through all of that hate, which I will always appreciate.

Is it completely crazy to not want to hire women entirely because of the internet rage show that will inevitably follow (which I'm not saying is the case with GB, I have no idea what their hiring process looks like)? Maybe not. But it is cowardly, lazy and potentially dangerous to your business, if you have any interest in expanding your reach beyond one very specific demographic.

Every day, I'm grateful that I get to do this. I just wish I could share it with more women, people of color, and LGBT folks.

Nothing of value to contribute except uhhhhhh you're the best.

[tegan]

but what do you think about senran kagura

[juv3nal]

So about the giant bomb hiring situation, here's me venting a bit because I can't be bothered to sign up for an account over there.

 

A lot of folks over there who are quick to defend the hires that were made raise the notion that "well do you think they should have hired female/poc candidate x instead if they were not the most qualified candidate" and there's a lot of strawman-directed hedging on the other side (ostensibly my? side of the fence) going "no one is saying you should hire someone who isn't qualified because obviously there are plenty of women who have the qualifications for the job" entirely sidestepping this issue of "most qualified."

 

But here's the thing: you absolutely should hire someone who is not the most qualified. When one of your metrics of being qualified is experience in senior positions (I mean I don't know, but I'm a guess that's kind of important), the only reason marginalized people are less qualified is because they've been systematically denied opportunities to hold those positions in the past. If you pretend you're starting from a blank slate when making a hiring decision right now, you're only perpetuating the problem since marginalized people are already starting from a point of disadvantage.

[Griddlelol]

It's interesting hearing people talk about most qualified, because in reality, what does that even mean? 

I had a minor crisis when I was accepted onto a PhD program years ago. I told myself it was because I was the best candidate, but I couldn't help doubting that maybe it's because of what I am rather than who I am (that later turned out to be bullshit, I'm awesome). I was up against a lot of women which really didn't help my insecurity. Fortunately the institution I did my PhD at was extremely diverse - I think in my department it's about 60:40 ratio of women:men. However...

 

I seriously think that being chosen for something because I'm a white dude, rather than because I'm super good would destroy my soul. Can't think of anything worse in that situation, I'd much rather be told "you're not good enough, go get better" than "you'll do because I have a bias."

[Problem Machine]

I seriously think that being chosen for something because I'm a white dude, rather than because I'm super good would destroy my soul. Can't think of anything worse in that situation, I'd much rather be told "you're not good enough, go get better" than "you'll do because I have a bias."

This is why I try to present as completely anonymous online a lot of the time -- not anonymous in the sense of 'without name', but more 'without origin', presenting little information as to what I am like in person. I suppose probably, when presented with anonymity, a lot of people sub in the 'default' cishetwhitedude, but I try, as much as is possible, to structure the circumstances so that people will read whatever I say without that kind of bias. I doubt I actually achieve anything that way, but I still prefer that distance as a matter of taste. Unfortunately it doesn't work well for writing, where letting people into your mind and life is kind of hard to avoid, so it's really a pretty flimsy presentation layer.

 

This is purely selfish, but one of the reasons I support feminism is because until we dismantle these systemic privileges it will be impossible to know which accomplishments stem from merit and which stem from systemic advantage. I am a ridiculous person, but the same part of my brain that hates playing a top tier character in a fighting game hates the fact that the world probably takes me more seriously for my pasty complexion and wang.

[osmosisch]

Wangs are serious business though.

[JonCole]

Also, this isn't meant to be a criticism or judgment, but I don't really even know what being qualified for a job as a gaming writer means. I get asking for qualified applicants if you are in a field that requires specific education and has a degree of risk in the day-to-day operation of said job. For many gaming-related writing tasks, the only things you really need are some talent at writing and perspective. Knowing how the system works so that you're less confused when going to industry events or have better interactions with PR or even knowing how to use a CMS surely has value, but those are things that can be learned by seemingly anyone.

 

With that as my premise, I think it's weird to look for "qualified" people in this industry. The skillset is fairly flat and relatively easily learned, so why is there seemingly so much value placed on it?

[miffy495]

It's interesting hearing people talk about most qualified, because in reality, what does that even mean? 

I had a minor crisis when I was accepted onto a PhD program years ago. I told myself it was because I was the best candidate, but I couldn't help doubting that maybe it's because of what I am rather than who I am (that later turned out to be bullshit, I'm awesome). I was up against a lot of women which really didn't help my insecurity. Fortunately the institution I did my PhD at was extremely diverse - I think in my department it's about 60:40 ratio of women:men. However...

 

I seriously think that being chosen for something because I'm a white dude, rather than because I'm super good would destroy my soul. Can't think of anything worse in that situation, I'd much rather be told "you're not good enough, go get better" than "you'll do because I have a bias."

 

Try being a male elementary school teacher. It's such a feminized profession that they are actually public about the quotas that they have to hire men (30%, if you're wondering). Most men in teaching end up in high schools, and then specifically in math and the sciences. Working in the grade 1 - 3 set, I constantly have "I probably got this job over better teachers because I'm a dude" hanging over my head, and this is reinforced by the amount of parents I have who love to make small talk by starting with "It's so nice for these kids to see a man in this position." Gendering careers is the stupidest thing.

[Griddlelol]

Gendering careers is the stupidest thing.

 

Pretty much. Reminds me of the first week on my first real job. A co-worker asked me "how do you feel about having a woman for a boss?" I didn't even know it was a "thing." Many of my university lecturers were women, and it honestly never occurred to me that it would be a problem.

 

You can probably tell I lived a pretty sheltered life when it came to sexism. I didn't know it existed until I first finished university. Came as a bit of a shock, and now I'm trying to learn as much about it as I can (although I still find the idea of Women's Studies strange and un-academic). 

[Brannigan]

Way back when I was in high school I did Tae Kwon Do, it always completely blew people's minds that my teacher was a woman.  Some asking how I could even deal with that.  i usually just asked how they're dealing with that fact because I'm obviously fine with it.

[Bjorn]

This is why I try to present as completely anonymous online a lot of the time -- not anonymous in the sense of 'without name', but more 'without origin', presenting little information as to what I am like in person. I suppose probably, when presented with anonymity, a lot of people sub in the 'default' cishetwhitedude, but I try, as much as is possible, to structure the circumstances so that people will read whatever I say without that kind of bias. I doubt I actually achieve anything that way, but I still prefer that distance as a matter of taste.

 

I've kind of done the opposite.  I have a traditionally non-gendered name that has been skewing increasingly female over the last 20 years (Courtney).  I tend to bounce back and forth between using screen names related to Bjorn with a masculine avatar, or using Courtney, and going with something less gendered as an Avatar.  I don't change how I write or interact at all, but just have the different names and avatars.  It's always interesting to see the difference in the replies I get between the two. 

[BFrank]

This is purely selfish, but one of the reasons I support feminism is because until we dismantle these systemic privileges it will be impossible to know which accomplishments stem from merit and which stem from systemic advantage. 

 

Even after it's dismantled (partly? entirely?), it's still impossible to know who had merit and who had advantages. I think it's a footing we'll all move away from eventually. The world is too big with too many people to really believe that any one of us deserves what we get in life. I'd rather see lots of viewpoints/backgrounds represented at the top of every field instead of a narrowly defined 'best and brightest'.

[Problem Machine]

Even after it's dismantled (partly? entirely?), it's still impossible to know who had merit and who had advantages.

Yeah but it will be easier to not worry about it when fewer people are getting actively fucked over by that bias.

[Ben X]

Oh, whoops, I told Justin this was in here, but I actually found it via a comment on this io9 post:

 

http://jezebel.com/screenwriter-bro-just-might-be-hollywoods-biggest-fuck-1440597536

 

I just assume any feminism-related thing I see now is via this thread!

 

That interview is pretty skeezy but I think the Jezebel article removes a fair bit of context.

[Twig]

Wow, because I'm impatient and I skim articles and that guy looks sorta like one of my old teachers at DigiPen, who's all about equality and inclusiveness in gaming, I was really fucking confused at first and then realized it was a completely different guy and was relieved.

[Justin Leego]

Yes I would absolutely recommend clicking through to the original article on Shelby Sells before starting to draw any conclusions.

http://shelbysells.com/2013/09/30/interview-series-max-landis/

[Reyturner]

The Ping-Pong Theory of Tech Sexism by Ariel Schrag. 

 

A good read, and something I notice around the office at times. 

[Bjorn]

Yes I would absolutely recommend clicking through to the original article on Shelby Sells before starting to draw any conclusions.

http://shelbysells.com/2013/09/30/interview-series-max-landis/

 

That's...fuck, what an interview.  Like, no one even approaching being a public figure ever talks about their personal life and sex life like that. 

 

I mean, some of the shit he admits to is pure asshole dirt bag territory.  But there's so much going on there that just pulling out random quotes is problematic. 

[TychoCelchuuu]

http://leighalexander.net/but-what-can-be-done-dos-and-donts-to-combat-online-sexism/

[Justin Leego]

Further to the interview above, this comic affects my view of Landis the Younger. It's by the person who co-created Boy's Night Out with him (which is excellent in and of itself) which leads me to infer that, contra Jezebel, there's a chance Max is not simply an unrepentant Hollywood bro-douche.

 

http://www.sassquach.com/journal/2014/6/8/damsel-in-distress-damsel-in-yo-face.html

 

It's a long'un for full quote purposes so just a few panels here, but by all means check it out

[Ben X]

http://leighalexander.net/but-what-can-be-done-dos-and-donts-to-combat-online-sexism/

 

Helpful, though

 

DON’T: Feel like you have to give a response. Sometimes people simply want to be heard and understood, and you do not need to prove you are a good person by offering a pithy reply or insincerely fist-shaking along.

 

and

 

DO: Express your feelings of support. When you see something unjust happen, say that you condemn it.

 

seem a little contradictory.

[Twig]

It's sad how much of that boils down to "have empathy for your fellow human beings".

[TychoCelchuuu]

http://jezebel.com/uk-judge-thinks-man-who-raped-sleeping-woman-isnt-a-c-1600613924

[Golden Calf]

seem a little contradictory.

 

I think the explanation from the 'do' paragraph clears up any seeming contradiction: 

 

When someone’s the victim of destructive sexist behavior, defend them– not in a brownie points-seeking way, directing your comments at the victim herself or copying women into your Tweets so that they know you’re a good guy — but in your own channels. When you see friends and colleagues passing on destructive opinions, challenge them.