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Roderick

Feminism

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It's fun to say

Disagree! Of all the cursing and swearing and cussing I do, asshole is by far theleast fun! Okay maybe damn, but at least I can say that with a cartoonish emphasis like DAMN YOUUUU.

Edit: I have the worst new page post record of anyone. JESUS.

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Fuck-fuckity-fuck-fuck-fuck is objectively the most fun swear to say. 

 

My wife's father once asked her to stop taking the lord's name in vain, so she started substituting God Balls for Jesus Christ.  Her dad never asked her to tone her language down again.

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Arsehole is a good British variant. Other favourite: Shitehawk.

 

I don't worry about gendered ones if the gender is male ("Ball-faced fucker" is one I've never used on anyone, but it makes me giggle), and sometimes reverse genders if I'm going to use a male-gendered insult (It's fun to call friends bastards if they're women, but not the same to call a man a bitch).

 

Cunt is a word I like, but try not to use. I once used it in front of someone for whom it was a massive trigger.

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When my wife and I argue, I sometimes pull out the "You're being a turdface!" card. That always stops a pointless argument dead in its tracks and neither of us feel like arguing afterwards.

 

Cunt is a word I like, but try not to use. I once used it in front of someone for whom it was a massive trigger.

 

This is a word I cannot bring myself to use any more. I used to not think it was that big a deal but I have since learned that of all curse words, that is the most likely to get people's blood boiling.

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I'm quite partial to the wonderfully unisex 'dickminge'.

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There's some interesting pushback to reclaim the usage of cunt, which really came up a lot when the Oxford English Dictionary added a bunch of Cunt-derived words and phrases recently

 

Pretty much all the swear words associated with the penis can be used both positively and negatively.  It does seem like it would be a net benefit if the swear words associated with the vagina could have similar parity. 

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I'm quite partial to the wonderfully unisex 'dickminge'.

 

I... think I need to start using this one.

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While playing Titanfall recently I've been declaring pretty much everyone a fucker.

 

(Not on voice chat. Just to myself.)

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I use fuckwit a lot, particularly as a replacement for 'retard' in the pejorative sense, and 'fuckwittery' for 'retarded'. Sometimes I'll get creative.

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Gobshite.

The irish language has gendered insults which basically mean the same thing. Amadán for a man and oinseach for a woman.

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Disagree! Of all the cursing and swearing and cussing I do, asshole is by far theleast fun!

Only Ze Frank can say "asshole" with any real vemon.

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I love that this thread has turned into tips for swearing in the most inclusive manner possible.

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"Fuckface" and "shithead" are very inclusive curse words that I use. Sometimes, I rely on "Pendejo" sometimes, which is probably the only non-gendered Spanish curse word I can think of.

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"Fuckface" and "shithead" are very inclusive curse words that I use. Sometimes, I rely on "Pendejo" sometimes, which is probably the only non-gendered Spanish curse word I can think of.

 

I sometimes use "pendejo", but it always comes out sounding like John Turturro from The Big Lebowski.

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I sometimes use "pendejo", but it always comes out sounding like John Turturro from The Big Lebowski.

 

Dios mío, mang.

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Transplanting a discussion from the Arkham City thread to this one.  Apologies for all the text.

 

 

I did see that, but is it just people calling Catwoman a bitch?  Because if that's all, frankly I'm still not getting it.  I'm not really hearing it that often and in my mind, these people are thieves and killers.  They're not supposed to be liked.  If one of the "good" people called her a bitch that would be a different thing.  I didn't read the Metal Gear thread so sorry if I'm covering a similar idea.

 

 

What I feel is that narrative justification doesn't necessarily excuse misogyny contained in a work of art. Regardless of who is saying those things in the narrative, the creators of the game created a situation in which these people exist so is inherently endorsing them by means of creation.

 

The more I research the feminist cause, the more I realize that many elements of misogyny are so ingrained in culture that it's hard to properly contextualize the wrongdoing. In the case of words like the ones you mention, they're gender-specific - they're words being used directly to address a female, that is. There is no equivalent gender-specific jabs thrown in Batman's direction as a male, so there's an inherent imbalance in how women and men are being treated, despite there being a reason for the jabs to be thrown in the first place. In other words, there may be justification for why thieves and killers would say such things, but by having them say those specific things to that specific character there is a gender-specific imbalance.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think this is incredibly strong ground to stand on. In its best case, I think it's more of an indicator than evidence of harmful intent. I wouldn't indict a game solely on this, but there's something inherent to the misogyny of that situation that can contribute to greater picture. I personally feel that since these gender imbalances are more inherent than obvious, it imparts a feeling of uneasiness rather than blatant outrage. It feels wrong to me to hear those words being lobbed at a female character in this game, but until I really logic it out it's hard to express why the situation is not right.

 

 

I do hear them call Batman a son of a bitch, which is as gender specific as bitch, although I suppose son of a bitch is still misogynistic since you're calling the mother a bitch.

 

I can't completely buy into the idea that just by creating a world with certain elements you are inherently endorsing those elements.  The game has people being beaten, shot, stabbed, fed to sharks, frozen, poisoned, etc.  Are those things being endorsed by their existence in the game?  Gamers have long argued that a violent game doesn't make a person violent, is it really so different with misogyny?  Why are we comfortable with smashing a man's head in but not hearing a woman called bitch?

 

Mind you I am NOT defending misogyny.  I'm being intentionally argumentative to provoke a (hopefully thoughtful and civil) discussion.

 

 

Maybe endorsing isn't the right word, but displaying something before people does normalize the existence of that thing culturally. I wouldn't argue that violence in games promotes violence, but I do think that having violence be depicted interactively on screen makes people a lot more familiar with violence and expectant that violence exists in the real world and can serve a similar function as depicted in the medium. Gender norms with children strike me as analogous - before you introduce that boys like blue things and girls like pink things, there is no norm for what colors are attributed to what gender in a child's mind. Even if a parent isn't shoving it down a child's throat by buying them only blue or only pink things, they'll see in stores that those colors are attributed to those genders through products. So, whether or not the attribution is blatant, it happens just due to the fabric of our society.

 

I feel similarly about misogyny in general. I would never say that Batman: Arkham City makes people be misogynists, but by creating a world where misogyny exists it normalizes the existence of misogyny and in my opinion, endorses it by means of that normalization.

 

Finally, I think your intentional argumentativeness is resulting in some slippery slope business. I'm not comfortable smashing a man's head in personally. On the other hand, I also think that in general we (gamers) are fine with both smashing a man's head in and hearing a woman called a bitch. I do think that we (Thumbs, at the very least) have a responsibility to be more discerning and question whether it's okay that either of these standards is generally acceptable when they're not really adding anything except visceral entertainment value. Because really, is Arkham City enhanced by thieves calling Catwoman a bitch instead of something gender-neutral?

 

 

For what it's worth, I also kind of struggle to understand why some of the enemy barks towards catwoman are considered so problematic. Frankly, that is the kind of language I would expect horrible bad guys in a prison city to use towards a female (I think it is safe to assume these guys probably have sexist tendencies) and it would just sound a little off if they only went with gender neutral profanity. If the argument is simply that there is an imbalance in gender specific profanity towards batman and catwoman then I can kind of see the point. But even then, it seems reasonable to assume that the bad guys would be more inclined to think they could intimidate catwoman, who they might unfairly assume is weaker.

 

But I really don't have a strong opinion on this, just sharing my thoughts. JonCole, you make some pretty good points in your post above but I'm still not entirely convinced that there is anything inherently wrong with the bad guys saying some of the sexist things they say. I think it is important for games to try to promote gender equality but at the same time, if you are aiming to portray certain characters as "bad guys" it kind of makes sense that they would do and say things that we recognize as bad.

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After you guys got me thinking about all the gender-orientated words, I caught myself using the word 'gash' earlier on to describe something shitty. As in, 'that's a bit gash'. There are two things this word can refer to:

  1. Wound
  2. Vagina

I think that it's clear how the second likely evolved from the first. It's very widely used (here) as a stand-in for 'shit', 'crap', 'rubbish', etc. Am I bastard for using it in this way? I can't really say that I'd associate the word with either definition in this particular context, but I'm conscious that there's sensitivity to use the term for either gender's genitalia as some kind of derogative.

 

Clearly avoiding the term altogether is the easiest course of action, but — and I realise this sounds kind of stupid — I like the word. I'm re-evaluating terms that make their way into my everyday conversation and it's quite interesting thinking about the possible connotations of some of them. Is it going too far to use words like 'bollocks', 'dick', and any other gender-specific term? Should such sensitivity be reserved for when that gender is female, so what we're saying isn't so much 'avoid gender-specific terms' but more 'avoid female-specific terms'?

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Responding to JonCole's second post:


I think normalization is a better word and I'll agree with you there.  Presenting criminals who call a woman a bitch or a hot piece of ass or whatever does create an impression (possibly a correct one) that this is the norm, at least in this context.  But I do think there's a difference between presenting a norm and endorsing one.


My comparison of violence and misogyny is the slipperiest of slopes.  It is somewhat reflective of my surprise that this became an issue in the game though.

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I've paraphrased the more salient (imo) points from those Hulk articles (plus his collection of some of the problematic stuff from the first few hours), as I found them useful to summarise the main argument against AC's use of the word "bitch" and other tone control . I'll put it in spoiler tags just so it doesn't take up half a page (but also because it has spoilers:

 

IN THE FIRST HOUR OF ARKHAM CITY WE HAVE A SCANTILLY CLAD HIGH-HEAL-NINJA-ING CATWOMAN GETTING BEATEN BY TWO-FACE AS HE CALLS HER A BITCH. WE HAVE A GROUP OF MUSCLE-BOUND HOODLUMS ALL STANDING AROUND EXCITED TO DUMP HER INTO A VAT OF ACID. BATMAN COMES TO THE RESCUE AS CATWOMAN ESCAPES. SHE FLIRTS WITH HIM MERCILESSLY AND MAKES NOT JUST DUMB, BUT NOT-FUN SEXY PUNS. BATMAN THEN GOES OUTSIDE AND YOU OVERHEAR A BUNCH OF GUYS TALKING ABOUT HOW CATWOMAN AND AGAIN THE WORD BITCH POPS IN.  THEY ALL THINK SHE SWINGS BOTH WAYS (CAUSE THAT’S THE KIND OF THING ANY SEXY GIRL MUST BE UP FOR). AND THEN THEY’RE BASICALLY TALKING ABOUT THEIR MASTURBATORY FANTASIES OF HER… YOU KNOW, ABOUT THE SAME ONE THEY WERE CALLING A BITCH. BATMAN THEN GOES OVER TOWARD THE JOKER’S TOWER AND YOU HOPE ALL THIS SHIT IS OVER BUT THEN YOU OVERHEAR A BUNCH OF THUGS TALKING ABOUT HOW HARLEY QUINN IS A DUMB BITCH.

NOW THIS WAS WHERE HULK LEFT IT THE OTHER NIGHT AND TO BE SURE HULK WASN’T JUST REACTING OUT OF MOMENTARY THINGS HULK CAME BACK AND PLAYED A LOT MORE TO BE FAIR… IT DIDN’T GET ANY BETTER.

ACTUALLY IT GOT WORSE. THE FOLLOWING IS STUFF OVERHEARD BY A WIDE CAST OF CHARACTERS THAT INCLUDES PRETTY MUCH EVERYBODY:

“DON’T COME ANY CLOSER OR THIS BITCH GETS A HOLE WHERE HER HEAD USED TO BE!”

“THAT CRAZY BITCH!” (SAID BY A GOOD GUY)

“SHE SCARES ME. FORTUNATELY I SAW THE CRAZY BITCH LEAVING!”

“YOU DON’T FIND THE BOSSES GIRL ATTRACTIVE DO YOU?” / “IN HERE THEY ALL LOOK GOOD.”

“DID YOU HEAR THE NOISE THAT DOCTOR WAS MAKIN?”  / (GIGGLE) “I LIKE HEARING HER SCREAM LIKE THAT”

“I DON’T KNOW WHAT JOKER SEES IN THAT CRAZY BITCH”

CATWOMAN NEEDING MORE GADGETS (AND TALKING TO HERSELF): “I NEED MY TOYS. I’D JUST BE (INSERT MARYLIN MONROE VOICE) NAKED WITH OUT THEM (COO).”

“YEAH THE BOSS HAD THE CAT ALL CHAINED UP BUT THAT BITCH BROKE FREE.”
 
There are other, more creative ways to make psycho crims scary without resorting to this (cf Nolan's Batman films)
Just because it makes sense doesn't mean it's a good choice.
Calling her a bitch is all they seem to do - overwhelming and lazy.
It might be "realistic" but the game as a whole isn't realistic - it's set in a hyper-stylized world, full of one-note henchman enemies.
It is thoughtless- there is no message or discussion here (cf Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns - whatever you think of it, it deals with storytelling contexts and ideas, it is textured and deep). There is no tone or context, it is presented at face value with no reason except titilation.
This game was marketed to kids on kids tv channels.
Girls fighting bad things does not equal feminism. Here, Catwoman is objecified and simplified.
Sexism born of laziness is still sexism 

 

Obviously, you'll have to read the articles to get the fleshed-out arguments.

 

Thrik - although I'm pretty sure you're being a little flippant, using a word some would interpret as problematic does not make you bastard. With regards "gash", if I used it, although I would not literally be saying "this thing is like a vagina and therefore terrible because women", I would be using it as a reappropriation of a slang term for vagina, not wound - if it were the latter, it wouldn't be a rude word. That's my thought process, anyway. So yeah, that's one of the words I wouldn't use. I would say that ideally stuff like "bollocks" should be avoided as well but as misandry isn't normalised in society and stopping men from getting equal rights, I don't see it as needing as much consideration.

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But I do think there's a difference between presenting a norm and endorsing one.

 

Along those lines, here's another angle to think about. The bad guys in this game exhibit misogynistic behavior and the good guys do not. I think one could argue that having that contrast, at least at some level, does make a statement about that kind of behavior not being acceptable. So while they may be presenting that kind of behavior as the norm, it seems clear to me that they are certainly not endorsing it. 

 

Edit: I just saw Ben X's post above mine and, seeing it framed that way I feel like I don't have the strongest of arguments.

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But I do think there's a difference between presenting a norm and endorsing one.

 

Although I covered this in the list I just posted, I just wanted to clarify that the argument isn't that they're actively endorsing the norm, more that they decided to be part of that norm with no good reason.

 

(Disclaimer: as I said before, I have not played the game, so I'm just presenting arguments, not making them.)

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Along those lines, here's another angle to think about. The bad guys in this game exhibit misogynistic behavior and the good guys do not. I think one could argue that having that contrast, at least at some level, does make a statement about that kind of behavior not being acceptable. So while they may be presenting that kind of behavior as the norm, it seems clear to me that they are certainly not endorsing it. 

 

My problem with this, and in general how this game is being described (I haven't played it, but here's my opinion anyway), is that it creates a hard dichotomy that just doesn't reflect reality. Plenty of nice or good people use gendered swears, the last few pages of this forum are evidence of that. Saying the word "bitch" doesn't automatically you a bad person and creating a world where only the bad guys use words like that obfuscates how pervasive these attitudes are in society. It's like when someone is presented as having cartoonishly racist attitudes; it allows people to ignore the more systemic racial problems because hey, at least they're not going around using awful slurs like the real racists that are often shown in media.

 

It's been mentioned before, but this kind of writing feels so lazy and uninteresting. Having a random thug in a video game call a woman a "bitch" or threaten her with rape is so overused at that this point that it no longer shocks me, it just makes me bored and angry. Whenever I see a prominent female character in a game, I count the minutes until something like this happens and am never disappointed. Batman doesn't sound like the worst example, but it is another addition to the garbage pile of lazy writing that plagues female characters in games (and tv and movies). 

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t's been mentioned before, but this kind of writing feels so lazy and uninteresting. Having a random thug in a video game call a woman a "bitch" or threaten her with rape is so overused at that this point that it no longer shocks me, it just makes me bored and angry. Whenever I see a prominent female character in a game, I count the minutes until something like this happens and am never disappointed. Batman doesn't sound like the worst example, but it is another addition to the garbage pile of lazy writing that plagues female characters in games (and tv and movies). 

 

I agree. Part of my point is that while it can be argued that bad guys using these words is what bad guys would do, I have to ask if it actually enhances the game in any perceptible way. Does it really make these bad guys more convincing as bad guys? If it's not really an effective form of writing and it can be argued that it supports bad gender-specific standards, why write it at all?

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