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Roderick

Feminism

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 but I can't possibly imagine what problem they have with a woman who chooses to do it.

 

The problem some feminists have with it is that when a woman chooses to stay at home, that makes employers more likely to view women as a risky investment and it contributes to the workplace being dominated by males (or so a random article on Google tells me). It's actually a good point and I can't argue against the validity of that sentiment. My problem with that viewpoint is that I think it focuses on the wrong issue. It seems that people who support that view seek change through tipping the balance of power rather than seeking change through educating and raising awareness about feminist issues to men and women alike. Put it another way, I don't think leveling out the playing field so that half of the work force is comprised of women is necessarily the right approach to achieve true equality, nor does it send the right message about what feminism is. But I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here.

 

I'm curious about this space feminist concept now too. Are they feminists from space or are they a subset of earth feminists that relocated to space? 

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You just get defensive about being wrong.

Thanks for proving my point.

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I tend to idealize more than I should.

Our concept of child-care in this society is stupid in my opinion, so is our obsession with worker productivity. Any system that necessitates the separation of parents from their children for 40 hours a week is broken.

What I'm trying to say is that your wife should be able to take the kids to work.

And so should you.

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Where was the part where he said you were less than human, again?

Mmmh. You're a clever one.

 

I regret responding. The thread has progressed like twenty pages since he made that asshole post. Plus it's nonconstructive to reply to a post like that, anyway! Wokka wokka.

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Good ol' Google Søg.

 

The last 6 pages or so of this thread have been really mind numbing. I like to read this thread sometimes, but it really went off rails here with nitpicky stuff. Make this thread more interesting, I command thee now. Google Søg!

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I tend to idealize more than I should.

Our concept of child-care in this society is stupid in my opinion, so is our obsession with worker productivity. Any system that necessitates the separation of parents from their children for 40 hours a week is broken.

What I'm trying to say is that your wife should be able to take the kids to work.

And so should you.

 

I agree, in an optimal world, I'd like one parent to be able to stay at home with the kids at least until school age, but perferably until the tweens. I don't care which parent it is, but someone should be given the chance to be there.

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The problem some feminists have with it is that when a woman chooses to stay at home, that makes employers more likely to view women as a risky investment and it contributes to the workplace being dominated by males (or so a random article on Google tells me). It's actually a good point and I can't argue against the validity of that sentiment. My problem with that viewpoint is that I think it focuses on the wrong issue. It seems that people who support that view seek change through tipping the balance of power rather than seeking change through educating and raising awareness about feminist issues to men and women alike. Put it another way, I don't think leveling out the playing field so that half of the work force is comprised of women is necessarily the right approach to achieve true equality, nor does it send the right message about what feminism is. But I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here.

 

The problems with any movement that traffics in criticism of the people it means to help are many. I don't really need to reference anything specific, but I'm reminded of the 1972 purge of the United Red Army in Japan, in which twelve members out of thirty hiding away in the mountains were executed for various failures to live up to Communist ideals.

 

Many feminists criticizing women for any traditionalism they show are usually second-wave masquerading as third-wave and, like you say, see the feminist cause as a matter of confrontation and overthrow. The goal of feminism is not to make all women men or to make all men women, but to allow anyone to be anything with equal treatment for all. It's easy to get invested in the respects where that is least well realized, I imagine.

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on a sort of related subject, what is feminisms view on paternity leave? and that women are automatically assumed to be the better parent and get custody of a child in the majority of cases? (not trying to make a morbid prediction here Zeusthecat)

 

The issue of paternity leave, and mothers typically being considered the "default" parent in a custody case, and pretty much any other legitimate complaint that someone may bring up as a "men's rights" issue is typically something that an exasperated feminist (at least one who subscribes to beliefs similar to my own) would respond to with "Fuck, OF COURSE it's bad. And it's a direct result of men and women being viewed differently by society! If we were actually viewed as EQUAL this shit wouldn't come up because neither the mother NOR the father would automatically be considered the better parent." Feminism is also fighting for men's rights in the sense that by breaking down that shit and treating people equally for reals, you're throwing out the assumptions that society makes about both sexes. That's positive assumptions too. The same way that saying "all Asians are good at math" is considered a problematic statement by anyone who is the least bit sensitive to racial issues despite the fact that "being good at math" is viewed as a positive trait, "all women are good parents" is viewed as problematic by feminists despite the fact that "being a good parent" is a desirable trait. It's a faulty assumption based on an essentialist view of the sexes.

 

As you seem to be sympathetic to the MLK argument re: silence being damaging when you agree with a cause, I'll drop my own reason for identifying as feminist on you. I'm a straight white guy. Straight enough, anyway. I've always been more attracted to more "alternative" women. My partner shaves her head, wears "male" clothes, and tends to confuse the elderly when they can't immediately discern her sex from looking at her on the street (honestly, some of them have come up to her and complained that they couldn't tell). This means that our friends are also largely in this alternative crowd, and very few are straight. Hell, I don't identify as 100% straight, it just so happens that I only have sex with women. Hanging out with this crowd, I've seen my share of confrontations. Angry drunks who think that because a woman is bald she can be called out and ridiculed in public for not conforming. People harassing a lesbian couple that we were hanging out with. I've been beaten up on grounds of assumed homosexuality. I always kind of knew that the status quo view of women and homosexuals was a root cause of this, and didn't like that, but it took a long time for me to realize that as a normal looking mostly-straight white guy, I have a super power. Those clowns who harass the people I love? Because of my straight-white-male-ness, they'll actually listen to me for a little bit before they realize that I'm a feminist. That is JUST enough time to seed some ideas in their heads that may actually create change. This is something that most of the people I hang around with won't get to experience. No matter what they say or how they say it, they'll be dismissed immediately. I won't. It's a shitty state of affairs, and an extra sign of how privileged I am, but that's how it is. Since I disagree with it, I feel like I have an obligation to say so and maybe, just fucking maybe, I'll change a mind every few years. Enough people do that, and we can do some good. For that reason, I'm proudly a feminist and have started to feel that there is a moral obligation for those who disagree with the status quo and are white and male enough to be heard by the masses to say something. While that label may make you and others uncomfortable, without a flag to rally behind, there's no movement. With no movement, there's no progress. As long as we all have the common goal of equality between men and women, we need to stick together and that label is one of the best ways to show that we are united in that regard. There are feminists who don't think that transgendered people should count, there are feminists who don't want my white male voice to be joined with theirs, but there are many more others who just believe in an ideal and want to make shit better. I'm joined up with them.

 

 

...and now I fade into the shadows once more because every time I turn my back this thread grows 5 pages and it's really hard to keep up with.

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Honestly comparing my daily experience (with particular regard to interactions with strangers and in the workplace) with my partner's was a huge wake-up call for me. I began to realise exactly how out of whack things still are equality-wise, and how important a movement feminism is.

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The issue of paternity leave, and mothers typically being considered the "default" parent in a custody case, and pretty much any other legitimate complaint that someone may bring up as a "men's rights" issue is typically something that an exasperated feminist (at least one who subscribes to beliefs similar to my own) would respond to with "Fuck, OF COURSE it's bad. And it's a direct result of men and women being viewed differently by society! If we were actually viewed as EQUAL this shit wouldn't come up because neither the mother NOR the father would automatically be considered the better parent." Feminism is also fighting for men's rights in the sense that by breaking down that shit and treating people equally for reals, you're throwing out the assumptions that society makes about both sexes. That's positive assumptions too. The same way that saying "all Asians are good at math" is considered a problematic statement by anyone who is the least bit sensitive to racial issues despite the fact that "being good at math" is viewed as a positive trait, "all women are good parents" is viewed as problematic by feminists despite the fact that "being a good parent" is a desirable trait. It's a faulty assumption based on an essentialist view of the sexes.

 

As you seem to be sympathetic to the MLK argument re: silence being damaging when you agree with a cause, I'll drop my own reason for identifying as feminist on you. I'm a straight white guy. Straight enough, anyway. I've always been more attracted to more "alternative" women. My partner shaves her head, wears "male" clothes, and tends to confuse the elderly when they can't immediately discern her sex from looking at her on the street (honestly, some of them have come up to her and complained that they couldn't tell). This means that our friends are also largely in this alternative crowd, and very few are straight. Hell, I don't identify as 100% straight, it just so happens that I only have sex with women. Hanging out with this crowd, I've seen my share of confrontations. Angry drunks who think that because a woman is bald she can be called out and ridiculed in public for not conforming. People harassing a lesbian couple that we were hanging out with. I've been beaten up on grounds of assumed homosexuality. I always kind of knew that the status quo view of women and homosexuals was a root cause of this, and didn't like that, but it took a long time for me to realize that as a normal looking mostly-straight white guy, I have a super power. Those clowns who harass the people I love? Because of my straight-white-male-ness, they'll actually listen to me for a little bit before they realize that I'm a feminist. That is JUST enough time to seed some ideas in their heads that may actually create change. This is something that most of the people I hang around with won't get to experience. No matter what they say or how they say it, they'll be dismissed immediately. I won't. It's a shitty state of affairs, and an extra sign of how privileged I am, but that's how it is. Since I disagree with it, I feel like I have an obligation to say so and maybe, just fucking maybe, I'll change a mind every few years. Enough people do that, and we can do some good. For that reason, I'm proudly a feminist and have started to feel that there is a moral obligation for those who disagree with the status quo and are white and male enough to be heard by the masses to say something. While that label may make you and others uncomfortable, without a flag to rally behind, there's no movement. With no movement, there's no progress. As long as we all have the common goal of equality between men and women, we need to stick together and that label is one of the best ways to show that we are united in that regard. There are feminists who don't think that transgendered people should count, there are feminists who don't want my white male voice to be joined with theirs, but there are many more others who just believe in an ideal and want to make shit better. I'm joined up with them.

 

 

...and now I fade into the shadows once more because every time I turn my back this thread grows 5 pages and it's really hard to keep up with.

i can see where you are coming from, i enjoy hanging out with a more alternative crowd as well, they tend to be more open minded, and share a similar view that people should be allowed to be who they are, and maybe i am just too much of a nonconformist to want to identify with any fixed group of ideals, but i will stick up for the principles of feminisms and equality, i myself am hardly the epitome of man and have been told to cut my hair by random strangers (maybe i confused some men from behind) so i can empathise with your girlfriend in that respect, but i just find it hard to be part of a movement that i may not agree with 100%, but maybe in this case i should just do that if i can just decide on my own ideas of what the movement is

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i just find it hard to be part of a movement that i may not agree with 100%

 

I admit I still find this a little hard to wrap my head around. Is something innocuous like environmentalism morally untenable to you because there have been and are a few eco-terrorists out there blowing stuff up? And I assume you don't vote in any elections unless there's a candidate you agree with a hundred percent, otherwise how can they represent you?

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I admit I still find this a little hard to wrap my head around. Is something innocuous like environmentalism morally untenable to you because there have been and are a few eco-terrorists out there blowing stuff up? And I assume you don't vote in any elections unless there's a candidate you agree with a hundred percent, otherwise how can they represent you?

well actually i just pick the least bad of the bad bunch, but political parties aren't movements they have manifestos i could read and if there are things in it i outright disagree with i don't vote for them and if somebody says "this political party believes X" i can either say "yes they do and that is one of the reasons i voted for them" or i can say "no they don't believe that, you are misinformed" it's the problem i had with that movement i can't even remember the name of that protested outside wall street by camping and it spread across the world about inequality in wealth, it had no clear goals except that inequality was bad, i actually had a similar conversation that included MLK when they compared the movement to what he did, i said they had MLK as a leader and he gave them goals, they have nobody and no clear goals, and it is similar to feminism in that way, maybe Anita Sarkeesian or someone like her could be the MLK of modern feminism and give it some clear goals

 

edit: it was the occupy movement, and no there aren't any political parties in england that represent me, to more specifically answer your question

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Feminism has some pretty clear goals. End sexual discrimination, reduce the number of women who are sexually assaulted and raped, close the wage gap between women and men, and so on.

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Feminism has some pretty clear goals. End sexual discrimination, reduce the number of women who are sexually assaulted and raped, close the wage gap between women and men, and so on.

yeah, the occupy movement had a clear goal of reducing the wage gap between the rich and the poor, i guess i mean goals on how to achieve it, protesting by saying "this is wrong" achieves nothing, maybe it's just because i am a goal orientated person, i need specific things to aim for.

 

to to goal of "End sexual discrimination, reduce the number of women who are sexually assaulted and raped, close the wage gap between women and men" my question would be how? 

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to to goal of "End sexual discrimination, reduce the number of women who are sexually assaulted and raped, close the wage gap between women and men" my question would be how? 

 

See miffy's post.

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yeah, the occupy movement had a clear goal of reducing the wage gap between the rich and the poor, i guess i mean goals on how to achieve it, protesting by saying "this is wrong" achieves nothing, maybe it's just because i am a goal orientated person, i need specific things to aim for.

 

to to goal of "End sexual discrimination, reduce the number of women who are sexually assaulted and raped, close the wage gap between women and men" my question would be how?

There are lots of ways! Urge companies to run sexual harassment training sessions to explain to their employees what kind of behavior is unacceptable, educate people about what constitutes rape so that men are less likely to rape women, set quotas for the number of women a business needs to employ before they can bid on government contracts, add mandatory time off work for men whose wives have just had children so that employers don't view women as employment liabilities, and thousands of other things that we can do and that we have been doing ever since second wave feminism took off. Not to mention stuff like allowing women to go to school, vote for their preferred political candidate, run for office, and so on, advances which we can thank first wave feminism for.

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There are lots of ways! Urge companies to run sexual harassment training sessions to explain to their employees what kind of behavior is unacceptable, educate people about what constitutes rape so that men are less likely to rape women, set quotas for the number of women a business needs to employ before they can bid on government contracts, add mandatory time off work for men whose wives have just had children so that employers don't view women as employment liabilities, and thousands of other things that we can do and that we have been doing ever since second wave feminism took off. Not to mention stuff like allowing women to go to school, vote for their preferred political candidate, run for office, and so on, advances which we can thank first wave feminism for.

 

yeah, i agree with a lot of that, but how would you urge companies and governments to do that, nowadays protesting just gets you arrested and put on a list and no change happens

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yeah, i agree with a lot of that, but how would you urge companies and governments to do that, nowadays protesting just gets you arrested and put on a list and no change happens

No it doesn't.

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Sometimes it's a simple as telling your friends that their woman driver jokes are for jerks. Sometimes it's as simple as joining a twitter campaign to have women represented on banknotes better. And sometimes it takes getting shot in the head, surviving and then touring the world spreading the message that girls deserve and education too.

Nobody expects you to go through the last one, but the first two are within the reach of anyone.

Also, protests have always gotten people arrested, what's new there?!

Edit: ugh, and can we try to stop sending such gross music to the top of the charts.

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If you protest non-violently you will not be justifiably arrested, and if you do wind up arrested it actually helps your cause by painting the aggressors as oppressive.

 

I disagree that protests are ineffective, but aside from that you can present your desire for change to the people who are capable of enacting it.  You can talk to your boss, write your state representative, talk to your friends about it, basically any way you bring it up to another human is enacting progress to some degree.

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