Feminism

[TychoCelchuuu]

Do you have examples of immature hateful feminists that say things like "all men are sexist" or "misandry doesn't exist" or examples of "people who spin everything in male culture into sexism" besides the sorts of straw feminists that are popular enough to have their own comic, their own TV Tropes entry,

, an opinion piece about them in the Washington Post, and so on?

But it seems like you care more about tone than argument, which is a pretty common tactic used in arguments against feminism. Argue against the tone, not the content, because what tone is acceptable is set by the patriarchy, and any feminists who speak out against it can be accused of using the incorrect "tone." (This is also used to marginalize African Americans - see discussion of the angry black man whose issue is that he uses the wrong tone.) If you think tone arguments aren't the sort of shit that gets trotted out to attack feminists all the time, check out the tone argument entry on the Geek Feminism wiki or just check out this tweet and this tweet from the White Male Privlege twitter account, which has tweets about the most common examples of the sorts of things that make up male privilege, which is the ability men have in our society to say and do things that come naturally to them without catching shit for it, even though feminists catch all sorts of shit for the same thing.

Notice, for instance, that far from being castigated for his approach, Dawkins' brand of "militant atheism" has a lot of followers. It's the hip new brand of atheism that all the kids love! And although I don't like how Dawkins gets angry because I think he's wrong about certain things and thus has no cause to get angry, I would never begrudge him his anger if he were at all correct. If teaching children religion is child abuse, then he has a right to get angry about it if he wants! And if feminists are right, we have a right to get angry about certain things.

If you tell us to shut up and you say you won't listen to our arguments just because we're angry about social injustice, that's just one of the many silencing tactics that have been used since literally time immemorial to sweep injustice under the rug so that white men don't have to deal with it until it presents itself wrapped up in a nice tidy package just the way they like it, usually in the form of a very "articulate" member of the oppressed group or better yet another white dude.

[Twig]

I'm not really sure what thestalkinghead is talking about, either, but I will say that most of my frustration with the topic of feminism* or any other touchy subject is that (and this has happened on these forums more than once) if I don't agree 100%, I get enough backlash that it's like people think I'm Less Than Human. Like my opinion is now worthless, because I don't completely agree with the people trying to change the world for the better. Like, because I don't agree on one specific thing under the umbrella of said topic, I'm part of the problem, and I need to be shut down.

 

Maybe that's what he's talking about. Because it's a real thing, and it's annoying as shit.

 

*EDIT: I should specifically say that I mean my frustration with discussing the topic. Because I very much agree with the goal. There's no issues there.

[clyde]

Best thread evar.

This is a new concept to me.

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Concern_troll

I need some time to think about it

[TychoCelchuuu]

Yes, concern trolling is pretty much what is going on right now, and as predicted in that article we've come close to reverting back to feminism 101. I didn't link the concern trolling thing because it was not directly relevant and because I suspect there's often nothing people making the tone argument hate more than being accused of concern trolling (partially because the name wrongly implies they're trolling, which as the page itself points out is not always the case) but it's always good to know that page exists because it puts a label on a practice that is extremely common in threads like this all over the Internet. "If only feminists would stop being so angry maybe I'd be a feminist too" and other ways of concern trolling aren't unique to this Idle Thumbs thread. You run into this shit constantly if you ever feel like engaging people about feminism on the Internet.

[jeremywc]

You run into this shit constantly if you ever feel like engaging people about feminism anything on the Internet.

 

FTFY. :-P

[TychoCelchuuu]

I've never seen anyone say "I'd be a Grand Theft Auto fan if only the reviews weren't so glowing that they make it sounds like you be an idiot to hate the game..."

[Gormongous]

"I'd be a proponent of civil rights if only they didn't make it sound like everyone who disagreed with them was a racist."

[jeremywc]

Note to self: No bad jokes in the Feminism thread.

[Gormongous]

Note to self: No bad jokes in the Feminism thread.

 

Nah, it was a good one. It's just kinda sobering to think that talking about feminism on the internet is pretty much the ultimate example of cross-talk.

[TychoCelchuuu]

Note to self: No bad jokes in the Feminism thread.

FTFY

[osmosisch]

most of my frustration with the topic of feminism* or any other touchy subject is that (and this has happened on these forums more than once) if I don't agree 100%, I get enough backlash that it's like people think I'm Less Than Human. Like my opinion is now worthless, because I don't completely agree

If the reason that you don't agree with a point is that your opinion is shitty, it will get called shitty. Nobody has ever called you shitty. You just get defensive about being wrong.

[Nachimir]

My twitter feed is full of women who feel shitty about themselves and their apparent place in the games industry and I don't feel like I know them well enough to say anything supportive. The omnipresence of people who use kindness as sexual currency makes me feel like I can't be kind without looking/feeling like a creep. I feel like I'm oppressing women by being attracted to them and feel incredibly isolated even by my standards.

 

I hate feeling this way. Everyone hates feeling this way. And people find it super easy to just blame feminism because it it was something they didn't have to deal with (just the women who felt unsafe because of it), but the problem itself lies with the fucked up sexist power dynamic feminism has exposed.

 

I'd been skipping over most of this thread, but just wanted to say in response to this:  I've felt hemmed in in the same way, and am gradually working through it. That's involved a combination of befriending other feminists and evaluating my own views.

The games industry seems to be in a super-awkward phase at the moment where a bunch of people who give a shit are only just learning to talk about this stuff. In turn, it's often not obvious which of them are using kindness as sexual currency, and even those who aren't have quite a primitive sense of when or how to talk about it.

I was speaking to a friend the other day who said she has to take long breaks from twitter because she feels trapped by constant discussion of these issues, and doesn't want them to be the sole thing that defines her time spent engaging with the rest of the industry. Another, who is queer, is outraged that certain game developers are de facto representatives for her class of people when she doesn't feel represented by them at all.

Things seem to be a little better than they were; at least people are trying to be aware. Everything about that is just a little crudely formed for now though: People are still blundering around a bit and looking for short cuts to make it all more understandable.

[Jason Bakker]

Linking this op-ed piece by Anna Gunn, the actress that plays Skyler White on Breaking Bad, about the vitriol she's received for playing the part. (Note: it contains mild spoilers, but not for anything recent.)

 

The situation is depressing, but the way she has handled it is pretty inspirational. I actually stopped watching Breaking Bad early in Season 2 because I found it too dark, but this makes me want to get back into it again.

[Ben X]

the tone argument entry on the Geek Feminism wiki

 

Thaaaat's the one I was thinking of!

[thestalkinghead]

Do you have examples of immature hateful feminists that say things like "all men are sexist" or "misandry doesn't exist" or examples of "people who spin everything in male culture into sexism" besides the sorts of straw feminists that are popular enough to have their own comic, their own TV Tropes entry,

, an opinion piece about them in the Washington Post, and so on?

But it seems like you care more about tone than argument, which is a pretty common tactic used in arguments against feminism. Argue against the tone, not the content, because what tone is acceptable is set by the patriarchy, and any feminists who speak out against it can be accused of using the incorrect "tone." (This is also used to marginalize African Americans - see discussion of the angry black man whose issue is that he uses the wrong tone.) If you think tone arguments aren't the sort of shit that gets trotted out to attack feminists all the time, check out the tone argument entry on the Geek Feminism wiki or just check out this tweet and this tweet from the White Male Privlege twitter account, which has tweets about the most common examples of the sorts of things that make up male privilege, which is the ability men have in our society to say and do things that come naturally to them without catching shit for it, even though feminists catch all sorts of shit for the same thing.

Notice, for instance, that far from being castigated for his approach, Dawkins' brand of "militant atheism" has a lot of followers. It's the hip new brand of atheism that all the kids love! And although I don't like how Dawkins gets angry because I think he's wrong about certain things and thus has no cause to get angry, I would never begrudge him his anger if he were at all correct. If teaching children religion is child abuse, then he has a right to get angry about it if he wants! And if feminists are right, we have a right to get angry about certain things.

If you tell us to shut up and you say you won't listen to our arguments just because we're angry about social injustice, that's just one of the many silencing tactics that have been used since literally time immemorial to sweep injustice under the rug so that white men don't have to deal with it until it presents itself wrapped up in a nice tidy package just the way they like it, usually in the form of a very "articulate" member of the oppressed group or better yet another white dude.

here is an example of what i don't like (above), yes i do care about the tone because i think it is important, and i agree 100% with what Twig said

 

"because what tone is acceptable is set by the patriarchy" this is the kind of thing that just makes you sound completely unreasonable 

[osmosisch]

here is an example of what i don't like (above), yes i do care about the tone because i think it is important, and i agree 100% with what Twig said

 

"because what tone is acceptable is set by the patriarchy" this is the kind of thing that just makes you sound completely unreasonable

Answering a well-thought-out and -sourced post with two dismissive lines is really crappy.

[Roderick]

Nachimir, that's a very truthful analysis of what is happening in gaming culture right now. I feel like I'm in that place too; trying to develop the language to deal with an increased awareness of this issue. Mind you, I always identified with being a feminist, but now that it's being (thankfully) pushed to the forefront, and I need new tools to correspond with the much larger playground.

[thestalkinghead]

Answering a well-thought-out and -sourced post with two dismissive lines is really crappy.

I'm not being dismissive, i am trying to explain my position on the subject, i could say what you just said was dismissive or that TychoCelchuuu was being dismissive by saying

 

"Notice, for instance, that far from being castigated for his approach, Dawkins' brand of "militant atheism" has a lot of followers. It's the hip new brand of atheism that all the kids love! And although I don't like how Dawkins gets angry because I think he's wrong about certain things and thus has no cause to get angry, I would never begrudge him his anger if he were at all correct. If teaching children religion is child abuse, then he has a right to get angry about it if he wants! And if feminists are right, we have a right to get angry about certain things."

 

because i am saying that i don't like his approach.

 

i am not saying people don't have the right to get angry and they should shut up, i am saying that if you want to convince someone about something or get them on your side, getting angry at them is a bad way of doing it, the person who is the most angry in an argument doesn't automatically win.

[Sententia]

In regards to tone, as jokey as it was gormongous' quote "I'd be a proponent of civil rights if only they didn't make it sound like everyone who disagreed with them was a racist." seems almost perfectly applicable.  It's hard to call a certain environment patriarchal without insinuating that the environment is patriarchal.  In the end feminists are going to say a bunch of things about how bad it is to not be a feminist, because ultimately a feminist is just someone who holds women in equal regard.  And if you're not a feminist you are without exception contributing to the problem, this is not an issue with a middle ground.

[osmosisch]

I'm not being dismissive, i am trying to explain my position on the subject, i could say what you just said was dismissive

1) you were being dismissive in that your position was dismissive of the content by complaining about 'tone'

2) I was indeed being dismissive because I find your attitude (or at least posts about it) worthy of dismissing.

[Nachimir]

Best answer I've seen to the tone argument: "No you be nice, I'll be truthful".

[clyde]

i am not saying people don't have the right to get angry and they should shut up, i am saying that if you want to convince someone about something or get them on your side, getting angry at them is a bad way of doing it, the person who is the most angry in an argument doesn't automatically win.

When I read Tychocelhuuu's link about how the "tone arguement" tends to often derail discussions of feminism, it really rang true for me. I hate the idea that tone of an argument is off the table, but I'm also willing to accept that this happens a lot and it can make it so that in-depth discussion infrequent. Maybe a solution would be to have a separate thread where people can discusses the tone argument, so that the feminist thread doesn't get derailed.

I agree that being angry is a bad idea, but after reading about concern trolling, I think that maybe I should address the arguments rather than the tone (when someone seems angry) and that the discussion is more likely to progress that way.

[thestalkinghead]

In regards to tone, as jokey as it was gormongous' quote "I'd be a proponent of civil rights if only they didn't make it sound like everyone who disagreed with them was a racist." seems almost perfectly applicable.  It's hard to call a certain environment patriarchal without insinuating that the environment is patriarchal.  In the end feminists are going to say a bunch of things about how bad it is to not be a feminist, because ultimately a feminist is just someone who holds women in equal regard.  And if you're not a feminist you are without exception contributing to the problem, this is not an issue with a middle ground.

 

if the definition of a feminist was purely "a feminist is just someone who holds women in equal regard" then i am a feminist, but i don't want to be associated with people who think being angry at people is a good way of getting their point across.

 

and Clyde maybe tone is a separate discussion than the actual core principles of feminism, but i think it is still a valid discussion and it shouldn't be dismissed by calling people who wan't to talk about it "concern trolls"

[clyde]

if the definition of a feminist was purely "a feminist is just someone who holds women in equal regard" then i am a feminist, but i don't want to be associated with people who think being angry at people is a good way of getting their point across.

and Clyde maybe tone is a separate discussion than the actual core principles of feminism, but i think it is still a valid discussion and it shouldn't be dismissed by calling people who wan't to talk about it "concern trolls"

But look at the last three pages of the thread. I've gotten a lot out of the last three pages, but I can see how some of the people here could get tired of having all of their arguements responded to with "I am not being angry, you are, Mr. Angry pants."

I could get just as much out of the last three pages if it was in a separate thread, and then when someone explains the difference between sex and gender, we can continue the discussion. If someone else insists on responding with a call for a more civil tone, we can link them to the other thread.

After looking at the last three pages, can you see why that might be valuable?

[Sententia]

To be honest I haven't come across this tone issue you're pointing out.  I don't think I've really seen it anywhere, including this thread.