Feminism

[syntheticgerbil]

 1

[tegan]

[Thrik]

Haha, oh man. That last sentence is a killer.

[syntheticgerbil]

Well that escalated pretty quickly.

[Dewar]

I was unaware that oranges caused indigestion. Thank you for warning me Atari.

[Gormongous]

I really enjoyed the even-handedness of RockPaperShotgun in its article today about the question of boycotting PAX. It took multiple positions at face value and gave them equal attention & credence, which made me feel like there's a way forward with all of this.

 

Then the comments take five posts to devolve into accusations of RPS "bullying" PAX and that tired, disgusting practice of asking why rape victims get preference over murder and theft victims. There's no hope for humanity. We live a hundred years and then rot forever in the ground.

[sclpls]

It definitely solidifies in my mind that RPS is one of the best games writing websites around. Accusations of having an agenda are getting tiresome though. Apparently the desire to make an effort at some human decency = nefarious agenda.

[Justin Leego]

There's no hope for humanity. We live a hundred years and then rot forever in the ground.

 

That's why we should take care of the environment.

 

(I thought it was a very well put together article too)

[SecretAsianMan]

That is a fantastic article.  It basically says all the stuff I was trying to say, only much much better.

 

Edit: I also made the mistake of looking at a few comments.  To paraphrase someone in the article (I'm not sure who), "That good feeling I had?  Gone."

[clyde]

I've been thinking about pop-morality and here is my hypothesis. Most people make judgements in what is fair and what is not fair based on whether or not they see a double-standard being applied. Because context is complex and often obscured, the circumstances of the parties involved are rarely considered by most people when judging fairness. I think this is why issues of priviledge, like systemic racism and misogyny are so frustratingly difficult to grasp for many.

When you consider this, comments that demand equality without consideration of history or positions of power are actually people who feel so strongly about injustice that they are compelled to speak out about it. I would be willing to argue that they are somewhat misguided without considering a larger scale, but it's kinda neat that there are people who want to defend equality. For me, living in a place as a racial minority for a little while really helped me understand equality on a larger scale. Maybe they just need an experience like that.

[Malice Song]

Then the comments take five posts to devolve into accusations of RPS "bullying" PAX and that tired, disgusting practice of feminist critics asking why rape victims get preference over murder and theft victims. There's no hope for humanity. We live a hundred years and then rot forever in the ground.

 

It definitely solidifies in my mind that RPS is one of the best games writing websites around. Accusations of having an agenda are getting tiresome though. Apparently the desire to make an effort at some human decency = nefarious agenda.

Okay, this might make me appear as a giant douche, but something about this has been bothering me for a while now and while it may be trivially basic for someone that isn't me, I'd still be interested in reading some opinions.

Initially I was probably pretty far one the side of the hopeless individuals. I enjoy dark, shocking and offensive humor. My basic reaction in cases like this where I am reasonably sure something isn't just done with the sole intention to be hurtful is pretty much: "Oh, you're offended? Deal with it."

However, reading a bit into this saga I stumbled upon a blogpost or something (sorry, didn't keep the link) from a rape victim stating that a reference to the act, no matter the context, can be enough to trigger a case of PTSD or anxiety attacks. Which changed a lot. Imo there's a clear difference in people getting pushed to the edge of their comfort zone (not a bad thing) and being affected on a psychological and/or physical level (certainly a bad thing). So I changed my personal tune quite a bit and while I don't see a clearcut solution for the scenario, I think I did get a much better understanding where "the other side" is comming from and that this isn't a matter of having an opinion, but a real tangible problem that needs to be adressed.

So my point is: I probably was pretty naive/sheltered not knowing these things, granted. But I can't imagine I'm being alone in that and I had the good fortune to keep away from comment sections, do some reading and stumble upon a post that basically was "look, let's not resort to namecalling, there's a real problem and I'm going to explain it".

Obviously I can't speak for other people and whether they're just as ignorant as me or genuinely ill-spirited bastards, but wouldn't it be better to try and establish a dialog and educate them on the real problem, instead of vilifying them? You know, just in case.

[Gormongous]

 Okay, this might make me appear as a giant douche, but something about this has been bothering me for a while now and while it may be trivially basic for someone that isn't me, I'd still be interested in reading some opinions.

Initially I was probably pretty far one the side of the hopeless individuals. I enjoy dark, shocking and offensive humor. My basic reaction in cases like this where I am reasonably sure something isn't just done with the sole intention to be hurtful is pretty much: "Oh, you're offended? Deal with it."

However, reading a bit into this saga I stumbled upon a blogpost or something (sorry, didn't keep the link) from a rape victim stating that a reference to the act, no matter the context, can be enough to trigger a case of PTSD or anxiety attacks. Which changed a lot. Imo there's a clear difference in people getting pushed to the edge of their comfort zone (not a bad thing) and being affected on a psychological and/or physical level (certainly a bad thing). So I changed my personal tune quite a bit and while I don't see a clearcut solution for the scenario, I think I did get a much better understanding where "the other side" is comming from and that this isn't a matter of having an opinion, but a real tangible problem that needs to be adressed.

So my point is: I probably was pretty naive/sheltered not knowing these things, granted. But I can't imagine I'm being alone in that and I had the good fortune to keep away from comment sections, do some reading and stumble upon a post that basically was "look, let's not resort to namecalling, there's a real problem and I'm going to explain it".

Obviously I can't speak for other people and whether they're just as ignorant as me or genuinely ill-spirited bastards, but wouldn't it be better to try and establish a dialog and educate them on the real problem, instead of vilifying them? You know, just in case.

 

I understand where you're coming from, but there's a reason that Jezebel and Shakesville and all those feminist blogging sites have a "Feminism 101" to which they refer all newbies and trolls without exception. The sort of understanding that you have found for yourself only comes from within, through voluntary self-education in good faith. There just aren't enough hours in the day to engage every single person spewing hate speech on a comment thread and make sure that they aren't just speaking out from a lack of empathy and perspective.

 

I just don't know. I have a lot of difficulty talking to people whose response to someone else's pain and distress is to say, "Suck it up," except maybe to ask them to stop, so I don't really want to spend my free time doing it too much, not when I can't make them change on my own.

[sclpls]

I'm all for dialogs, but that requires two parties that are willing to listen to what the other party is saying. That's why I mentioned how tired I am of hearing the "agenda" trope used. It's a rhetorical tactic used to ignore people that you disagree with. More than happy to talk to people that just don't know any better, or just have a different but respectful point of view. People that don't want to listen can't get educated until their attitude changes though.

[Malice Song]

I'm all for dialogs, but that requires two parties that are willing to listen to what the other party is saying. That's why I mentioned how tired I am of hearing the "agenda" trope used. It's a rhetorical tactic used to ignore people that you disagree with. More than happy to talk to people that just don't know any better, or just have a different but respectful point of view. People that don't want to listen can't get educated until their attitude changes though.

 

Is it really a tactic? Personally I am tired of people whining about being offended about everything. Whether or not I can make good points for why I think that way, at least to me (and that may be a wrong perception) it seems there's been a lot of that recently. And I was genuinely ignorant enough that the Penny Arcade incident just felt like more of that at first. It may be a trope, but I can kind of empathize with feeling as if a moral judgement is constantly pushed upon you for the things you enjoy. Of course that's not the case here, but that might not be initially apparent to everyone.

I totally agree with you about attitude. This is why I enjoy this place, I know there's real conversation to be had with intelligent people and if I have a differing perspective, I have breathing room to reflect upon it. What I've seen in the usual comment sections is a bit different, however. The self proclaimed free speech defenders are dropping some pretty vile statements, but at the same time the other side isn't exactly patient, either. I don't know, maybe that discussion has been had too often and I am just fashionably late to the party as usual.

Of course that goes the other way, too. As Gormongous said, you can try to seek a dialog, but you might not know beforehand if it has any hope of success. Meh, I guess I am just slightly frustrated about how the first victim of any heated argument is empathy.

 

I just don't know. I have a lot of difficulty talking to people whose response to someone else's pain and distress is to say, "Suck it up," except maybe to ask them to stop, so I don't really want to spend my free time doing it too much, not when I can't make them change on my own.

 

See, that's the thing. I think I can understand that, but you also might be a lot further than other people. And I think (or at the very least sincerely hope) the respose isn't to the pain and distress (I don't have much faith in humanity but at the end of the day I have a hard time believing the majority of these people are actually advocating sexual abuse), but to the reaction to what they perceive as just a joke. That that amounts to more or less the same thing might be flying over a lot of folks' heads.

Of course it would be great if no one had to be educated on this and I'm not going out of my way to try to, either. I just know it can be pretty tough to put yourself in someone else's shoes, especially if you don't have a good point of reference, so there's probably a lot to what clyde wrote.

But yeah, I don't really have an answer, either. It's just that I started to wonder whether it might be a good idea for "us" to try and understand "them", too, because I can't shake the feeling that a lot of the barking is just defensive posture over an unfortunate misunderstanding. But as mentioned, the whole thing is a bit puzzling to me on that level, so I am just glad to read some opinions.

[TychoCelchuuu]

There's an endless cycle of objections that feminists have to go through. At the very base level you just have people who hate feminists and want them to go away forever, without listening. You can either let them tire you out, because they are everywhere and they are loud and they have power and they will never stop hating you, or you can fight them endlessly.

Then you have the very large group of people who doesn't understand feminism at all and, whenever they see a feminist get angry (or, in your words, "offended") about something, they'll misunderstand and think you're wrong. There are an endless number of them and no matter how much you explain feminism throughout your life you will never be able to educate all of them. But, you can spend your entire life educating.

Then there are people like you who are more or less willing to hop on board for some (maybe most or all) of the basic feminist positions but they're concerned about the way feminists argue, because we don't spend enough time being conciliatory or accepting or understanding or patient. This is because they (you?) fail to realize that for every feminist patient enough to spend their entire life dealing with the first two sets of people via arguments that don't eventually get snippy or strident or dismissive or frustrated or curt or taciturn, there are plenty of feminists who, after days or weeks or months or years of getting into an argument every time they want things to not be shit for women, just get tired, and give up being nice at one point or another.

Just listen, read, learn. You'll start to see, sooner rather than later, just how often people try to dismiss feminist arguments not because they're wrong but because they don't like the tone. You say that you "can't shake the feeling that a lot of the barking is just defensive posture over an unfortunate misunderstanding" but the best way to shake the feeling isn't to force us to convince you, it's to go out and learn on your own. If people did this instead of expecting feminist to do all the work, feminists would stop getting angry and we'd bark less.

[Malice Song]

Just listen, read, learn. You'll start to see, sooner rather than later, just how often people try to dismiss feminist arguments not because they're wrong but because they don't like the tone. You say that you "can't shake the feeling that a lot of the barking is just defensive posture over an unfortunate misunderstanding" but the best way to shake the feeling isn't to force us to convince you, it's to go out and learn on your own. If people did this instead of expecting feminist to do all the work, feminists would stop getting angry and we'd bark less.

 

Yeah, I can't argue with that or anything else you wrote, for that matter. As I said, I can't state with certainty that it is indeed a misunderstanding. Maybe all those openminded talks have been had already, to no effect, and I just wasn't around to witness them. Your post implies as much and I would assume you to be more knowledgable about this than me. And the last thing I want to suggest is to load the burden onto the feminists, I think a mutual understanding can't really be reached without mutual effort.

 

I don't know, I guess I'm just comming from a rather naive or idealistic place. Like you've put it, "hopping on board for some of the basic feminist positions"? Here's the thing, I am not even entirely sure I know what that means. Which probably doesn't come as a surprise. If it means what I think it does, then yeah, and I have no idea how anyone could disagree with that. Maybe that's why am playing devil's advocate and want to give the benefit of doubt.

 

It's just something I was wondering about. I don't know Mr Krahulik and can't speak for him but the whole thing had a "deer in the headlights" vibe for me personally and I might be totally wrong in that judgement. I just know that I had the luxury to be quiet, soak up a lot of information and not having to make too much of an ass off myself. If I was in his position, I might have reacted in a similarly unfortunate manner.

 

But I'm not making that judgement. It's just a point I felt I needed to bring up and see what you guys think about it. In the end, listen, read, learn is probably all you can do to really gain an understanding. I think I can understand the whole boycotting thing, but I was hoping there's a better way to deal with it. Potentially having to acknowledge that there may not be one is unfortunate, to say the least.

[TychoCelchuuu]

He's had the luxury of being quiet and soaking up a lot of information! Between the original comic, the response comic, the T-shirt, the controversy over the T-shirt, multiple news posts, and the many many months that have passed since all that, he has had time to think about it! If you were in his position I would hope you would've come to the conclusion that when asked about the biggest mistake you've ever made, "a tiny concession to rape survivors and their allies that I have offended because I'm a fucking idiot" wouldn't jump to the top of your mind!

[clyde]

I'm in a similar place Malice Song. I'm a beginner too.

I think it's great that the crowd in here is a mixture of idealism and practicality. It makes me feel like we can actually accomplish something by putting a bit of effort forward when we see an opportunity to do so. Choose your battles.

[Malice Song]

Yeah, I just love that people usually make actual points instead of flinging polemics. Half the time I still don't agree (while lurking in general, not this thread), but it does force you to think about your opinion instead of just having it and hopefully grow as a human being in the process. So thanks, community!

 

Also don't ever think a topic is stupid, tired or overdone. Someone's bound to get something out of it.

[jeremywc]

I try, some days with more success than others, to hold onto the long view of things. When you consider the full course of human history, the idea of feminism is still incredibly young. I mean, even the broader category of universal civil rights is something that we still have a lot of work to do on. But I believe that my generation is more tolerant than my parents. And I still have hope that my children and their generation will be more progressive than mine.

 

I think the key is to get up every day and continue to educate yourself. Try your best to educate those who you know you can influence. Every drop in the bucket matters. In time, the seeds of progress are nurtured and bear fruit. It just takes time for new ideas and movements to permeate a culture. Sometimes it can take a lifetime. But we keep moving forward. That's what I try to remind myself, anyway.

[TychoCelchuuu]

2,300 years ago Plato argued that in the ideal state men and women would be equal. Feminism might not be very young, as ideas go.

[Gormongous]

2,300 years ago Plato argued that in the ideal state men and women would be equal. Feminism might not be very young, as ideas go.

 

Well, Plato argued that men and women definitely weren't equal, in part using horses as proof for it, but that it would be expedient in an ideal state to treat them as equal, just like it would be expedient to tell people that they had a bronze, silver, or golden soul to make them accept the caste system he proposed. There are a lot of things in The Republic that Plato might not have been too serious about.

 

I think, historically speaking, it's been fairly common for (male) thinkers to say, "Even though women aren't equal to men for reason X, we should treat them as equal because of reason Y." This is all over early Christian writings especially, before some of the heavy Patristic hitters tilted the balance all Jerome-like. But I think it's a fairly new idea, especially from a macro perspective, to say that "we should treat women as equal to men, period," with no qualifiers.

[clyde]

We should make a game that makes the foundational argument that Gormongous and Tychocelchuuu have lost patience for. Then they can make the sequel!

I wonder if you should be forced to play as a white male? If they are forced to start as a woman or racial minority, they might not play. We gotta get them hooked with an abilitease before they begin to see the value of diverse experience.

Edit: It would probably be a good idea to ask ourselves why Amazon-women sci-fi and fantasy stories have failed to make the argument thay we will be making.

I understand where you're coming from, but there's a reason that Jezebel and Shakesville and all those feminist blogging sites have a "Feminism 101" to which they refer all newbies and trolls without exception. The sort of understanding that you have found for yourself only comes from within, through voluntary self-education in good faith. There just aren't enough hours in the day to engage every single person spewing hate speech on a comment thread and make sure that they aren't just speaking out from a lack of empathy and perspective.

I just don't know. I have a lot of difficulty talking to people whose response to someone else's pain and distress is to say, "Suck it up," except maybe to ask them to stop, so I don't really want to spend my free time doing it too much, not when I can't make them change on my own.

There's an endless cycle of objections that feminists have to go through. At the very base level you just have people who hate feminists and want them to go away forever, without listening. You can either let them tire you out, because they are everywhere and they are loud and they have power and they will never stop hating you, or you can fight them endlessly.

Then you have the very large group of people who doesn't understand feminism at all and, whenever they see a feminist get angry (or, in your words, "offended") about something, they'll misunderstand and think you're wrong. There are an endless number of them and no matter how much you explain feminism throughout your life you will never be able to educate all of them. But, you can spend your entire life educating.

Then there are people like you who are more or less willing to hop on board for some (maybe most or all) of the basic feminist positions but they're concerned about the way feminists argue, because we don't spend enough time being conciliatory or accepting or understanding or patient. This is because they (you?) fail to realize that for every feminist patient enough to spend their entire life dealing with the first two sets of people via arguments that don't eventually get snippy or strident or dismissive or frustrated or curt or taciturn, there are plenty of feminists who, after days or weeks or months or years of getting into an argument every time they want things to not be shit for women, just get tired, and give up being nice at one point or another.

Just listen, read, learn. You'll start to see, sooner rather than later, just how often people try to dismiss feminist arguments not because they're wrong but because they don't like the tone. You say that you "can't shake the feeling that a lot of the barking is just defensive posture over an unfortunate misunderstanding" but the best way to shake the feeling isn't to force us to convince you, it's to go out and learn on your own. If people did this instead of expecting feminist to do all the work, feminists would stop getting angry and we'd bark less.

[Gormongous]

We should make a game that makes the foundational argument that Gormongous and Tychocelchuuu have lost patience for. Then they can make the sequel!

 

Have you or anyone else here heard about Always Sometimes Monsters? I've only read a little bit of the coverage myself, but it fascinates me.

[Dewar]

He's had the luxury of being quiet and soaking up a lot of information! Between the original comic, the response comic, the T-shirt, the controversy over the T-shirt, multiple news posts, and the many many months that have passed since all that, he has had time to think about it! If you were in his position I would hope you would've come to the conclusion that when asked about the biggest mistake you've ever made, "a tiny concession to rape survivors and their allies that I have offended because I'm a fucking idiot" wouldn't jump to the top of your mind!

 

While I don't necessarily agree with the way he put his point across, I don't disagree with the central point he's trying to make. Penny Arcade makes offensive (to different groups of people) comics all the time. If they'd made this particular comic, then moved on. Those people who were offended could have just skipped over the comic that day, and it would be over. It's his immature dragging the issue through the mud repeatedly, making a second comic, making and pulling the merch, and general asshattery around the whole thing that has made this terrible issue linger for years now. It sounds to me like he's basically saying "we're not going to engage with people who are fighting over our comics" which is a good thing. I might have made the same mistakes in my mind that he has made in public over the last few years, but the difference is that I keep my mouth shut.