Feminism

[SecretAsianMan]

I don't think it's any different. At a convention panel, I think you're either preaching to the converted or to the unconvertable. Either someone was already open to your viewpoint prior to attending or they weren't. I see very little chance in altering someone's world view in an hour panel. Any discussion or organization between like minded individuals could just as easily take place elsewhere. Changing peoples ideological viewpoints is really, really hard.

 

EDIT: I will add: If you want to continue attending PAX and working on panels at PAX covering feminist topics, then by all means continue to do so. But I think it's bullshit to imply that people deciding to not engage someone in an environment they feel uncomfortable in is somehow hurting a movement. I personally think a well written blog post can be every bit as effective as sitting in a panel.

 

I think you're skipping over what I'm actually saying.  I never said it was bullshit to not engage someone in an environment they're not comfortable with.  I'm not trying to force people who don't want to go to a place like PAX to go there just to host a panel.  I don't want people to stop writing blog posts.  I don't want people to stop telling their stories and speaking out about the things they believe in.  I'm saying that you can do those things within the context of a panel as well as on the internet.  I'm saying that they're both ways of conveying that information.  I agree that a single panel isn't likely to change someone's view, but by that conceit a single blog post, or in some cases an entire blog, isn't likely to do it either.  I also agree that a well written blog can be just as effective as a panel, which in the end means we need more of both.  The difference I'm trying to highlight is that on the internet it's easy to miss what you're not looking for, while at a place like PAX the panels are right there for everyone to attend even if they didn't know about them.  Maybe they're not the kind of thing someone would normally do, but if it was a topic they were unaware of how would they even know to look?  I can't speak for everyone, but I can say that I've attended several panels on topics I didn't really think about until I saw that a panel covering it existed (sadly none of those were covering the same issues as this thread but that's a story for another day).

 

Also, can I just say that I'm really pleased we can even have this discussion at all without it turning into a giant internet pissing contest about who's right?  This is the reason I only post on these forums even though I think everything I say is dumb.

[juv3nal]

Speaking of Mike: why have I now seen two references to a "non-apology" in reference to his transphobic remarks? As I recall it, he basically said, "I'm sorry I hurt people out of ignorance, and I will try to be better." Maybe I'm remembering wrong. (That he is now failing at being better is a different thing entirely. His apology seemed genuine at the time.)

 

Here is his "apology".

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/06/21/well-that-escalated-quickly

 

He doesn't own any of it. Sure he says the word sorry, but not without blaming others ("All my buttons got pushed") or offering excuses ("I can’t stop being an asshole" Yes, actually you can but chose not to.)

[Twig]

Still seems genuine to me but okay.

[syntheticgerbil]

Would a boycott even be effective? "Speaking with your dollars" will work only if a company acts rationally, and I'm not sure a small company headed by a few individuals necessarily will.

Also is PAX something PA does because it makes them a lot of money? I remember a lot of big cons folding over the years, and penny arcade use volunteer staff at PAX right? which doesn't exactly suggest that raking the cash in is the primary reason PAX exists.

That's kind of what I meant with it being useless when dealing with public events based on cult of personality. There's a major gaming convention owned and run by some volatile dues, charity as well. It's not like you can oust them or change figureheads if someone sucks. Boycott is perhaps the wrong word, as I actually hope everyone can just eventually forget about Penny Arcade instead of trying to have some kind of open dialogue because they have the keys to the Desoto. People are more than welcome to start creating their own similar small scale conventions. The IGDA heads in Austin (plus other crew) are starting Captivate as of this year to fill the void of GDC. Comic and Anime Cons seem to pop up in every major city without any kind of affiliation between each other.

 

side note: is any of Leigh's SVGL stuff archived on her new site? obviously the old sites vacant now but wonder if she brought it over to the new place

Derp, I didn't realize Sexy Video Game Land was her either. I guess I suck at paying attention to who is writing what article half the time. But yeah it appears SVGL is in all of the archived posts on her new site for many years back.

 

the thing is that feminist and LGBT issues aren't mainstream...

What? Every fucking day there's something about gay marriage in the news in the United States. People will base their whole political opinion on whether or not a candidate's platform includes banning gay marriage. And to bring it closer to games, nearly every day there is a news article on one of the big journalistic sites speaking of feminist issues and how they pertain to video games. Of course it's all necessarily and I think these discussions need to be had, but I also sometimes find it pretty exhausting to constantly hear about these issues. So if I feel exhausted from constant exposure, I can only imagine that even the bros that only visit the IGN forums and log off for the day have in some way or another gotten wind of what issues there are with the prevailing gaming culture at the moment.

 

[Gormongous]

Still seems genuine to me but okay.

 

He says he's sorry that people got upset, not that he made them upset. In fact, he has a whole paragraph explaining that he's a mean bastard at heart and therefore can't really help what he says. He doesn't apologize for that, just says it upsets him too.

 

His apology is genuine in that I believe he means every word. I don't mean to minimize that. It's just that none of the words are there that should be in an apology for arguing at length that trans women aren't women.

[Max Ernst]

Forgot that this was a thing and said without any reflection or irony. The headline/photo is a perfect combo, and shows how feminism is, in most common discourse, a white issue for white middle-upper class.

[Niyeaux]

This pretty much sums up my view on this whole PAX thing.

http://www.zenofdesign.com/penny-arcade-is-still-mostly-a-force-for-good/

[BigJKO]

Hmm.. I disagree with this:
 

Which means that Mike is effectively being pilloried for having an opinion regarding comedy and having an opinion.

 
I think he's being pilloried for deciding to take up the fight again and again for comedy/politic correctness when it's about rape jokes, instead of the times he's actually been effectively censored by big corporations that were offended by some joke about their big corporation. Like mentioned earlier in the thread, they took down the Strawberry Shortcake comic and never returned to it with further comment.

[Twig]

This pretty much sums up my view on this whole PAX thing.

http://www.zenofdesign.com/penny-arcade-is-still-mostly-a-force-for-good/

Me too but I bet that author is a white dude like I'm also a white dude so that doesn't really mean much la la laaaaa. LA LA LAAAAA.

[osmosisch]

This pretty much sums up my view on this whole PAX thing.

http://www.zenofdesign.com/penny-arcade-is-still-mostly-a-force-for-good/

This has nothing to do with anything but that site's font is infuriating. The gs look like qs.

[Ben X]

It looks like the hoops of the 'g's are getting cut off at the bottom (you can just see the tip of their tail rising back up), so perhaps it's something to do with the line spacing (or the webpage version of that, I dunno).

[thestalkinghead]

What? Every fucking day there's something about gay marriage in the news in the United States. People will base their whole political opinion on whether or not a candidate's platform includes banning gay marriage. And to bring it closer to games, nearly every day there is a news article on one of the big journalistic sites speaking of feminist issues and how they pertain to video games. Of course it's all necessarily and I think these discussions need to be had, but I also sometimes find it pretty exhausting to constantly hear about these issues. So if I feel exhausted from constant exposure, I can only imagine that even the bros that only visit the IGN forums and log off for the day have in some way or another gotten wind of what issues there are with the prevailing gaming culture at the moment.

 

i don't really want to get into a debate about the definition of mainstream, but if the news is about whether gay marriage should be allowed, i wouldn't consider that mainstream, mainstream marriage isn't talked about like that and i did say " a lot of the problems that are happening right now are a result of it becoming more mainstream" so i agree it is becoming mainstream, but it isn't quite there yet

[Thrik]

Hmm.. I disagree with this:

 

 

I think he's being pilloried for deciding to take up the fight again and again for comedy/politic correctness when it's about rape jokes, instead of the times he's actually been effectively censored by big corporations that were offended by some joke about their big corporation. Like mentioned earlier in the thread, they took down the Strawberry Shortcake comic and never returned to it with further comment.

 

That Strawberry Shortcake thing pretty much kills any arguments that they're doing this for the greater good of comedy, freedom of speech, etc. 

[Denial]

But the goal of many PAX panels isn't to try and educate the stubborn, but rather to inform the uninformed.  A lot of people who attend PAX really are oblivious to the kinds of things we're talking about here.  They're certainly not going to try and educate themselves in their free time, but having a panel at PAX at least might show them that these kinds of issues exist in the first place.  Unfortunately, it's also very unlikely that anyone who isn't interested will attend a panel like that, but at least it's another possible avenue to make the issues known.

 

It's a possible avenue, but is it a good one for them? I mean, you're talking about somebody submitting a panel idea, getting it approved, possibly travelling across America to set up a panel at a convention which is being told to be hostile to the kind of points they are raising by one of its spiritual leaders, which may not be attended by anyone they could have a useful conversation with. That's a big ask with no guaranteed payoff...

[SecretAsianMan]

It's a possible avenue, but is it a good one for them? I mean, you're talking about somebody submitting a panel idea, getting it approved, possibly travelling across America to set up a panel at a convention which is being told to be hostile to the kind of points they are raising by one of its spiritual leaders, which may not be attended by anyone they could have a useful conversation with. That's a big ask with no guaranteed payoff...

 

Again, I'm going to respond by saying that PAX is not entirely composed of PA thralls who will do whatever is commanded of them by Mike.  Some of those people are certainly there, but they're not the majority.  I've been to several of those panels myself and they're usually full.  No one in the audience is harassing the panelists or threatening them with bodily harm.  It's quite the opposite with lots of support and questions that lead to discussion.  I can't say for certain that the panels are necessarily effective in what they're trying to accomplish, but I wouldn't say there's no payoff.  There are plenty of people who are more than willing to attend PAX to give a talk like that.  But telling those people not to go at all because they'll be "supporting" PA doesn't seem like the right course of action to me.  I feel like seeing those kinds of panels go away would cause more harm than not attending in the first place.

[James]

How about protesting outside the conventions? That's a way of being visible to the audience without financially contributing to or implicitly endorsing Penny Arcade itself. And it's action rather than non-action, which I imagine to send a stronger message. Or would that be overly confrontational? Would the nuances of the argument be lost? Is that more immediately off-putting to those unfamiliar with the issues than a panel description? Are people even allowed to protest outside conventions? Is the very prospect kind of embarrassing? I don't know; it seems like something people do in other fields, so why not in gaming? Then again, it's not something that necessarily garners clear results with any consistency.

Are there any other courses of action beyond the simple attend/don't attend binary choice that we aren't considering? I'm not sure the majority would have much interest in these sorts of topics, unfortunately. Could one set up a booth very visibly drawing attention to the issue, or would that never be approved?

With regards to a potential boycott, I think it would really need to be exhibitors to have any effect. Unsold tickets will get snapped up by a near-limitless supply of enthusiastic gamers, but if high-profile games are absent, that might get noticed. Of course, some people will claim it's a publicity stunt, like they did with Fullbright, but there really is no escaping cynicism on the Internet.

[Denial]

But telling those people not to go at all because they'll be "supporting" PA doesn't seem like the right course of action to me.  I feel like seeing those kinds of panels go away would cause more harm than not attending in the first place.

 

Well, I don't think I did say that they shouldn't go because they'd be "supporting" PA. I said I wasn't sure it was a good use of resources for people with those objectives to travel long distances to hold panels at an event where they couldn't be confident that the event's corporate officers were not going to say something that would create a hostile environment for them - not just at the panels, but while getting to and from the panels, while walking around the expo and so on. I don't think that's really a question of whether they are supporting PA. It may be to some extent a question of whether PA is supporting them.

[Niyeaux]

I'm really not sure where this idea that PAX is a "hostile environment" is coming from. I attended a gender diversity panel this PAX, and it was both well-attended and extremely positive. All the questions were from folks looking for solutions to their own problems with gaming communities/gender politics, and no one was rude or negative at any point in the whole thing.

 

It's such a ridiculous extrapolation to think that because one of the guys who writes a comic that this convention is loosely based around says some dumb shit sometimes, the whole event is a hive of rape and misogyny. Have any of the people who are under this impression ever actually been to a PAX event of any sort?

[SecretAsianMan]

Are there any other courses of action beyond the simple attend/don't attend binary choice that we aren't considering? I'm not sure the majority would have much interest in these sorts of topics, unfortunately. Could one set up a booth very visibly drawing attention to the issue, or would that never be approved?

With regards to a potential boycott, I think it would really need to be exhibitors to have any effect. Unsold tickets will get snapped up by a near-limitless supply of enthusiastic gamers, but if high-profile games are absent, that might get noticed. Of course, some people will claim it's a publicity stunt, like they did with Fullbright, bit there really is not escaping cynicism on the Internet.

 

I've been thinking about this and the best thing I can think of would be to create a group or organization that would operate within PAX to support those that feel they need it.  For example, if there are women (or men) out there who are uncomfortable being alone or going to events without support, a network of people could be created to make sure no one is out there alone.  They could raise awareness without necessarily protesting just by being together as a large group.  People advertise things all the time at PAX, some for profit, some not.  The Cookie Brigade, who is not affiliated with PA in any way, collects donations for Child's Play and they just walk around asking if people would like to buy cookies for charity.

 

 

Well, I don't think I did say that they shouldn't go because they'd be "supporting" PA. I said I wasn't sure it was a good use of resources for people with those objectives to travel long distances to hold panels at an event where they couldn't be confident that the event's corporate officers were not going to say something that would create a hostile environment for them - not just at the panels, but while getting to and from the panels, while walking around the expo and so on. I don't think that's really a question of whether they are supporting PA. It may be to some extent a question of whether PA is supporting them.

 

I wasn't aiming that comment at you directly.  It was more of a general statement because there are people out there who are actively saying "Don't go to PAX because you're supporting PA".  I do understand where you're coming from though.  I can't answer whether or not it's a good use of resources for people to travel all the way to PAX for a panel because I've never done it and that situation would vary from person to person.  Maybe for someone close by it would be (with a PAX on each coast, odds are that it would be relatively easy for a good number of people).  Hosting a panel doesn't obligate them to stay for the entire duration of PAX either.  There have been panelists in the past who have litterally been at PAX only for the duration of their panel.  I'm not saying it would necessarily be easy either, but things worth doing rarely are.

[Argobot]

It's such a ridiculous extrapolation to think that because one of the guys who writes a comic that this convention is loosely based around says some dumb shit sometimes, the whole event is a hive of rape and misogyny. Have any of the people who are under this impression ever actually been to a PAX event of any sort?

 

 

 

http://littlelull.tumblr.com/post/60240420647/i-cant-go-back-or-why-im-so-bent-out-of-shape-about

http://www.idlethumbs.net/forums/topic/7428-feminism/?p=250834

http://www.idlethumbs.net/forums/topic/7428-feminism/?p=250831

 

?

 

Here's a good essay on why making a rape joke and then hiding behind the banner of satire or art is disingenuous: http://mammonmachine.com/post/60201774063/penny-arcade-and-the-slow-murder-of-satire

 

"Hive of rape and misogyny is hyperbolic -- no one who has criticized PA or PAX in this thread have accused them of all being violent rapists. People are trying to explain why they feel uncomfortable in a setting where an audience will literally cheer when someone expresses regret over pulling merchandise that was created in reference to a literal joke about rape.

 

If you think what Krahulik or any other influential video games leader says about women doesn't have an effect on general attitudes in the community, than you are either naive or have never directly received any negative attention (I suspect it's more of the latter case).

[Denial]

Yeah - if anyone is saying that, Niyeaux, you should absolutely post a link. OTOH, if nobody is actually saying that the whole PAX event is a hive of rape and misogyny, it's probably not a good use of our time to imagine how ridiculous it would be if someone did.

 

There are people who are saying that they don't feel as good about going to PAX as they used to, and/or that they no longer want to attend, and that is in part because of things like this.

 

Rachel Edidin at Wired.

A long-time PA fan, requoted by Ethan Gach.

Lesley Kinzel, a long-time attendee.

 

And to be fair to Mike Krahulik, he seems to be aware of this - his post when the merch was pulled described it as an "easy fix" to the problem that people had been writing to him saying that they, personally, would not feel as comfortable at PAX if there were a lot of dickwolves shirts on display. And, likewise, when he closed the book on the cis/trans thing, he said that he hated the idea that his Internet jerkishness might make even one person reluctant to attend PAX or watch PATV.

 

It feels like he's maybe just stuck in a very geek-appropriate cycle of not wanting to feel like he looks weak - so, despite that sincere feeling, he still wants to make the point that he was actually right all along - by saying he would be wearing his dickwolves shirt to PAX originally, by making "The Sixth Slave" one of his nominated stand-out comics, by drawing dickwolves on request, and now with this. You get this kind of behavior in arguments about whether Ken is a cheap character, or whether the Asari are commendably gender-indeterminate or regulation hot bisexual alien women - people simmering over time, and then throwing out an "and another thing". The stakes are just higher in this case, I think...

[brkl]

Ugh, this is exactly what I was afraid of.  I didn't want to derail this thread.  Don't get me wrong, I like having this discussion but I regret it has to happen here.  I think I should have done what I usually do and kept my mouth shut (or my hands still).

 

You're absolutely right in that if he made those statements at another convention he would catch a lot more shit and that he gets special treatment at PAX.  But again, he didn't say the things that made the Fullbright group withdraw from PAX at PAX, he said it on twitter and the PA site.  And if he said such things at PAX, you can bet a lot of people would certainly be upset even if it was "his show".  The idea that PAX is full of nothing but PA supporters and fans is a false one, so I wouldn't expect him to get off scot-free.

That's true and also it's not. I'm sure there are tons and tons of people at PAX who don't consider themselves Penny Arcade supporters or like the statements, yet everyone at PAX financially supports Penny Arcade. If you're not comfortable supporting PA, you should demand the organizations be properly split. I don't know if such a thing is even possible, though.

[thestalkinghead]

i think the general idea behind not making rape jokes is that making rape jokes turns the whole idea of rape into not such a bad thing, it could make people have the mindset of "rape, lol" when really the only association there should be of rape is "rape, how horrific" and i think this is what needs to be made clear to PA

[brkl]

You can make rape jokes. However, most of them are vile and have the victim as the butt of the joke. If you make a rape joke that exposes the perpetrator as a sad sack of shit you're unlikely to hear much criticism from feminist circles.

[thestalkinghead]

You can make rape jokes. However, most of them are vile and have the victim as the butt of the joke. If you make a rape joke that exposes the perpetrator as a sad sack of shit your are unlikely to hear much criticism from feminist circles.

i see where you're coming from, but that would take very a careful construction of the joke, because in the contexts of a joke the perpetrator could be seen as a joke eg. "you silly old rapist, you gone and dun it again" and would still diminish the horrific nature of a rapist, maybe it's not impossible to make a "good" rape joke but it's very hard