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I'm coming into the thread late so maybe I'm missing some context, but is the belief that the only problem with PAX is its association with the gross things that PA says? Because I honestly think there are some more systemic problems as well... like some kind of, I dunno, blood alien monster thing.

 

http://loveconquersallgam.es/post/60281881446/an-open-letter-to-jerry-holkins#_=_

http://littlelull.tumblr.com/post/60240420647/i-cant-go-back-or-why-im-so-bent-out-of-shape-about

 

It's times like this I'm absurdly grateful that the IT community exists, that there's a place to talk about games that isn't infested with misogynerds. Sigh. Real depressed right now. :mellow:

 

Those are the kinds of things that baffle me.  Not that I don't believe them or anything, but everything I've personally seen at a PAX has been great.  Granted, I'm a large Asian guy with a naturally grumpy face, so I don't really have the same kind of worries those women do.  But basically everyone I've met at PAX has been really nice and fun, and I'm not just talking about the enforcers, game devs, or other Thumbs community members.  It seems so odd to me that a place I tend to think of as full of people like me can contain people like that as well.

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Those are the kinds of things that baffle me.  Not that I don't believe them or anything, but everything I've personally seen at a PAX has been great.  Granted, I'm a large Asian guy with a naturally grumpy face, so I don't really have the same kind of worries those women do.  But basically everyone I've met at PAX has been really nice and fun, and I'm not just talking about the enforcers, game devs, or other Thumbs community members.  It seems so odd to me that a place I tend to think of as full of people like me can contain people like that as well.

 

The thing is, you can't tell by how they look. Whether you know it or not, it's almost certain that you know a woman who has been raped. You probably also know a man who has raped. We just don't talk about it, because that's how the world works right now, but the insistence I'm suddenly seeing everywhere that we focus on the positives of PAX sounds like saying "I'm alright, Jack." I know it isn't, especially with you being here in this thread and doing a great job of engaging everyone, but still.

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I don't like this argument at all. Why even bother waiting for them to change? I would rather people just boycott and move on to getting different conventions together. Who needs to support a corporation founded on the ego of a few guys and their dumb comic? I mean I know who does, everyone who loves video games and comics it would seem, but if anything maybe this will help these people with blind fan faith start to understand why making an "industry standard" conventionsbased on a cult of personality is the wrong way of doing things.

 

The sooner the gaming community stops worshiping Penny Arcade and ignores it altogether, the better everyone will be for it. I've never understood the appeal of the comic in the first place, always seemed to promote the usual gaming bro culture with dick jokes and constant sarcasm but with just a tad bit of intellectual analysis thrown in... sometimes. I don't know why anyone expects the creators to be some kind of bastion of good judgment.

 

Also I read this Leigh Alexander article on it last night: http://leighalexander.net/still-never-going-to-pax/

 

Off topic, After realizing she had a website I went through a few more of her articles. Her name seems to keep popping up and I had read some of her pieces before on Gamasutra and Kotaku and havdalways loved them. I think she is becoming my favorite game journalist now that I put all the pieces together. Also I see her favorite game is MGS3. Yes!

 

"why even bother waiting for them to change?" 

My stance isn't that when someone acts wrongly we should wait for them to change (that would be futile), it is that we should try to directly engaging with them with the intent of making them understand their problems and make the decision to change for themselves.

 

I suppose I'm uncomfortable with the framing I'm seeing of the boycott by sometimes.

Not as a tool to try and make another human being reconsider their past behaviour and to create change in a wider community, but as a punishment that has to be used because they don't understand any other language.

 

I hope PA hasn't hit that point of no return yet, where their opinions are so embedded nothing will work. Though if what Leigh says at the bottom of her article is true and that they consistently refuse to engage then perhaps they have passed that point. Certainly I'm not going to say that people aren't entitled to decide that for them personally PA has passed that point, but i don't think it's a position that should be taken lightly or without regret. 

 

Would a boycott even be effective? "Speaking with your dollars" will work only if a company acts rationally, and I'm not sure a small company headed by a few individuals necessarily will.

Also is PAX something PA does because it makes them a lot of money? I remember a lot of big cons folding over the years, and penny arcade use volunteer staff at PAX right? which doesn't exactly suggest that raking the cash in is the primary reason PAX exists. 

 

And finally (& most gloomily) what happens if a well publicised "mass boycott" takes place and but fails to make any impact on PAX's attendance ?  Once you've framed the idea of non attendance as something more than just a individual choice, I feel the msg that a unsuccessful campaign could send would be terrible. 

I think ultimately small scale

 

side note: is any of Leigh's SVGL stuff archived on her new site? obviously the old sites vacant now but wonder if she brought it over to the new place

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I'm coming into the thread late so maybe I'm missing some context, but is the belief that the only problem with PAX is its association with the gross things that PA says? Because I honestly think there are some more systemic problems as well... like some kind of, I dunno, blood alien monster thing.

 

http://loveconquersallgam.es/post/60281881446/an-open-letter-to-jerry-holkins#_=_

http://littlelull.tumblr.com/post/60240420647/i-cant-go-back-or-why-im-so-bent-out-of-shape-about

 

It's times like this I'm absurdly grateful that the IT community exists, that there's a place to talk about games that isn't infested with misogynerds. Sigh. Real depressed right now. :mellow:

 

just read those after making my last post and...

 

Well it makes me feel worried that perhaps there really is nothing we can do, that somehow one of the largest expression of the positive aspects of games has become something that has a entirely different meaning to a certain sub section of its male audience who's motivations i can't even begin to understand, because the sickening feeling i get when i read that second article isn't something they will ever feel or attempt to come to terms with.

 

That talking to them wont work, and that boycotting them wont work.

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I mean, I get the impulse to avoid it, because it feels real fucking not good to think about that shit even from my position on the sidelines, and I can only imagine how much worse it would be to actually be in a position of responsibility somewhere near it. They are basically the only people, within the context of PAX, that have the power to affect it one way or another, though. If no one says anything, nothing's going to change, and right now the people who try are being censored by screams of censorship coming from those they are trying to reach.

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I mean, I get the impulse to avoid it, because it feels real fucking not good to think about that shit even from my position on the sidelines, and I can only imagine how much worse it would be to actually be in a position of responsibility somewhere near it. They are basically the only people, within the context of PAX, that have the power to affect it one way or another, though. If no one says anything, nothing's going to change, and right now the people who try are being censored by screams of censorship coming from those they are trying to reach.

 

When I read something as harrowing as that part of me hopes that this MUST be something that would effect anyone who reads or it, & part of me fears how you can deal with someone who isn't.

 

It leaves me feeling that giving up on trying would be the easy way out for me, that I have to fight the part of me that can fall to feeling this is a hopeless fight. That this is too important for that, that i have to hope people can change because the alternative is to appalling.

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Boycotting PAX is destined to be completely ineffectual. There are 120,000 people who attended PAX this year, and ~119,000 of them either don't care about, or are completely unaware of, this whole controversy. The only thing that will be accomplished by those 1000 people who do care boycotting PAX is removing their voice from the conversation - and believe me, that conversation was in full swing at PAX this year. There were panels about gender representation in games, gender diversity in games media, queer acceptance in the games community, etc. Those panels were well-attended from what I saw, and stand a pretty good chance of educating people on the issues they discuss.

 

If you want to take your ball and go home because of some dumb shit Mike said, you're more than welcome to do so, but don't for a second think that that's going to help the situation at large. All that will do is make those panels disappear, make that viewpoint disappear from the PAX dialogue, and leave even more people in the dark than there currently are.

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I'm coming into the thread late so maybe I'm missing some context, but is the belief that the only problem with PAX is its association with the gross things that PA says? Because I honestly think there are some more systemic problems as well... like some kind of, I dunno, blood alien monster thing.

 

http://loveconquersallgam.es/post/60281881446/an-open-letter-to-jerry-holkins#_=_

http://littlelull.tumblr.com/post/60240420647/i-cant-go-back-or-why-im-so-bent-out-of-shape-about

 

It's times like this I'm absurdly grateful that the IT community exists, that there's a place to talk about games that isn't infested with misogynerds. Sigh. Real depressed right now. :mellow:

 

it's horrible reading things like this, but it just makes me want to live in a world where i am not perceived as a potential rapist, and i think that is a good enough reason for men to want to change things

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If you want to take your ball and go home because of some dumb shit Mike said, you're more than welcome to do so, but don't for a second think that that's going to help the situation at large.

 

I'm trying really, really hard not to ignore the entirety of your post because of this sentence. I might need some help.

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Boycotting bothers me because it implies that power comes from who has the most money. Realistically, I know that's how our current system works, but I really wish we could move away from this idea. Many of the people who are currently PA's loudest critics can't afford to actually attend the convention, so calls for a mass boycott isn't the most effective strategy.

 

Sadly, I don't think individual people making the decision to not attend PAX won't influence Penny Arcade to change. What the Fullbright Company did has the potential to help move things in the right direction, provided that other prominent people in the games industry make the same decision. Outside of that, the only way I see any actual change coming is by continuing to have this conversation. If PAX is meant as an inclusive space for everyone, than it's important for those who don't feel included to speak up and explain why.

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If you want to take your ball and go home because of some dumb shit Mike said, you're more than welcome to do so, but don't for a second think that that's going to help the situation at large. All that will do is make those panels disappear, make that viewpoint disappear from the PAX dialogue, and leave even more people in the dark than there currently are.

 

Fuck that.

 

You don't need to be at PAX to tell someone they're a fucking asshole. That's what we have the Internet for. The kind of bullshit that gets spewed by Mike's apologists can get my blood boiling so badly it's probably best I stay on the other side of an Internet connection from them, anyway.

 

People don't have to be forced into an arena where they feel uncomfortable just to use their voice because that's where the assholes congregate most. Those are the people least likely to change their minds, anyway. And it automatically puts party seeking change at an unfair disadvantage. I say speak up where ever you feel most comfortable in the way that works best for you. Just keep speaking up as long as you can.

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Fuck that.

 

You don't need to be at PAX to tell someone they're a fucking asshole. That's what we have the Internet for. The kind of bullshit that gets spewed by Mike's apologists can get my blood boiling so badly it's probably best I stay on the other side of an Internet connection from them, anyway.

 

People don't have to be forced into an arena where they feel uncomfortable just to use their voice because that's where the assholes congregate most. Those are the people least likely to change their minds, anyway. And it automatically puts party seeking change at an unfair disadvantage. I say speak up where ever you feel most comfortable in the way that works best for you. Just keep speaking up as long as you can.

Your end goal here is to call a dude an asshole? I was under the impression that the goal was to make gaming as inclusive of a community as possible. To that end, giving panels on gender/race/LGBT acceptance at a conference with 120,000 attendees seems like a pretty good idea, regardless of whether one of the dudes who runs the conference is a dickhead or not.

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Niyeaux does have a point though.  Sometimes the best way to change the system is from within the system.  I'm as happy as anyone that people on the internet are speaking their minds and writing important things, but a lot of that information is only going to reach an audience that's already looking for it, and they're not the ones you have to sway.  On the other hand, if a lot of applications for panels about gender issues get submitted, it's probably more likely to get the people who actually run the show to take note.

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Your end goal here is to call a dude an asshole? I was under the impression that the goal was to make gaming as inclusive of a community as possible. To that end, giving panels on gender/race/LGBT acceptance at a conference with 120,000 attendees seems like a pretty good idea, regardless of whether one of the dudes who runs the conference is a dickhead or not.

 

My end goal for dealing with stubborn assholes is to let them know I think they are a stubborn asshole and then be on my way. In my life, I have never seen an instance where someone who insists on being ignorant will change their mind based on something I say. Their ignorance is their security blanket and they will cling to it as if their life depends on it.

 

For example: I live in Texas. I don't attend the numerous Tea Party gatherings that go on down here and try to educate them on... the long list of things those people should be educated on. They don't want to be educated. They like their ignorance. You can't do anything with people like that. I think it's better to build around them and marginalize their viewpoints. Or maybe it's just better for my blood pressure. Either way, I don't like giving them the opportunity to drain my energy that I could be spending on something useful.

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My end goal for dealing with stubborn assholes is to let them know I think they are a stubborn asshole and then be on my way. In my life, I have never seen an instance where someone who insists on being ignorant will change their mind based on something I say. Their ignorance is their security blanket and they will cling to it as if their life depends on it.

 

For example: I live in Texas. I don't attend the numerous Tea Party gatherings that go on down here and try to educate them on... the long list of things those people should be educated on. They don't want to be educated. They like their ignorance. You can't do anything with people like that. I think it's better to build around them and marginalize their viewpoints. Or maybe it's just better for my blood pressure. Either way, I don't like giving them the opportunity to drain my energy that I could be spending on something useful.

 

But the goal of many PAX panels isn't to try and educate the stubborn, but rather to inform the uninformed.  A lot of people who attend PAX really are oblivious to the kinds of things we're talking about here.  They're certainly not going to try and educate themselves in their free time, but having a panel at PAX at least might show them that these kinds of issues exist in the first place.  Unfortunately, it's also very unlikely that anyone who isn't interested will attend a panel like that, but at least it's another possible avenue to make the issues known.

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Everything SecretAsianMan just said is on point.

 

Also, this:

 

For example: I live in Texas. I don't attend the numerous Tea Party gatherings that go on down here and try to educate them on... the long list of things those people should be educated on. They don't want to be educated. They like their ignorance. You can't do anything with people like that. I think it's better to build around them and marginalize their viewpoints. Or maybe it's just better for my blood pressure. Either way, I don't like giving them the opportunity to drain my energy that I could be spending on something useful.

...is a really bad analogy, and I think everyone can see why without me spelling it out. (Hint: PAX is an event about games, not about Mike's misguided personal opinions. A Tea Party rally, on the other hand, is about...)

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I don't think equating PAX with the Tea Party is quite right.

But to use that example, there must be some people you know who are reasonable Republicans, right? (Hell you could be one for all i know)

Now imagine they have a chance to go to a local political convention, one which those people who will decide the direction the party in the next couple of years will be watching closely.

Isn't it's better go there and make more reasonable veiws heard than let they let a subsection of the part slowly co-opt a larger movement and impose its agenda on it in?

That said the problem as a lot of people have bring up is that in this case is that people just don't feel whoely safe or welcome.

And that's the heart of the issue, if people don't feel safe or welcome in PAX they need to be given a environment where they do.

But just reading that Christine Love post earlier makes it clear that Niyeaux has a point. That it can offer a way to get a positive message out to more people than anything else out there.

In the end I think we have to respect both choices, and try and support both those who attend & those who feel they can't.

Perhaps as some have suggested a new convention would be a great way to do those things.

But we can't expect that PAX is just going to go away, and given that its not going away trying to do what we can to make it just a little better is worth doing for those who feel that they need to brave its waters.

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the thing is that feminist and LGBT issues aren't mainstream, obviously there are big communities about these issues, but as far as a lot of people are concerned feminism is either the suffragettes or something that happened in the 80s, and LGBT groups are a mystery, and a lot of the problems that are happening right now are a result of it becoming more mainstream, so it will take tolerance from both sides to properly educate people, people do change their minds with the right approach, and the best thing to do it to try and work out what the best approach is, i don't really know what the best approach is, but getting angry or making other people angry isn't the best approach in my opinion

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My end goal for dealing with stubborn assholes is to let them know I think they are a stubborn asshole and then be on my way. In my life, I have never seen an instance where someone who insists on being ignorant will change their mind based on something I say.

I'm a hugely stubborn asshole and I've changed my mind many, many times thanks to people calling me out on my bullshit. U:

 

Though it sometimes takes a few days of reflection. Hence the "stubborn" part. ):

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Boycotting isn't antithetical to spreading understanding about these issues.  Both can be done, and either way some positive progress is being made.  The reason I think it's good to be open about boycotting isn't solely because it's a capitalist version of punishment, it's also a powerful social statement which engenders discussions like this one to crop up.

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making other people angry isn't the best approach in my opinion

You realize this is bordering on the territory of a tone argument, right? When "other people" get to decide what makes them angry, avoiding making them angry is a good way to end up not being able to speak out at all.

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Everything SecretAsianMan just said is on point.

 

Also, this:

 

...is a really bad analogy, and I think everyone can see why without me spelling it out. (Hint: PAX is an event about games, not about Mike's misguided personal opinions. A Tea Party rally, on the other hand, is about...)

 

I don't think it's any different. At a convention panel, I think you're either preaching to the converted or to the unconvertable. Either someone was already open to your viewpoint prior to attending or they weren't. I see very little chance in altering someone's world view in an hour panel. Any discussion or organization between like minded individuals could just as easily take place elsewhere. Changing peoples ideological viewpoints is really, really hard.

 

EDIT: I will add: If you want to continue attending PAX and working on panels at PAX covering feminist topics, then by all means continue to do so. But I think it's bullshit to imply that people deciding to not engage someone in an environment they feel uncomfortable in is somehow hurting a movement. I personally think a well written blog post can be every bit as effective as sitting in a panel.

 

I'm a hugely stubborn asshole and I've changed my mind many, many times thanks to people calling me out on my bullshit. U:

 

Though it sometimes takes a few days of reflection. Hence the "stubborn" part. ):

 

Then you sound like me and are probably one of those people who find debate useful as a reality check and to see the other side of the coin. I don't think most people have the mindset or stomach for that.

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You realize this is bordering on the territory of a tone argument, right? When "other people" get to decide what makes them angry, avoiding making them angry is a good way to end up not being able to speak out at all.

yeah sure a polite and reasoned argument can still make people angry, but i mean intentionally trying to make people angry, like name calling.

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Then you sound like me and are probably one of those people who find debate useful as a reality check and to see the other side of the coin. I don't think most people have the mindset or stomach for that.

Hah, that's fair and probably true. That said, I wasn't always like that. Not that I would say I was a bigot or willfully ignorant, but I could be very bullheaded and unwilling to listen when someone told me I was wrong. My point is more that maybe you shouldn't give up on someone just because they're being an ass. Not that I blame anyone for giving up. It can be a chore. Worse.

 

Speaking of Mike: why have I now seen two references to a "non-apology" in reference to his transphobic remarks? As I recall it, he basically said, "I'm sorry I hurt people out of ignorance, and I will try to be better." Maybe I'm remembering wrong. (That he is now failing at being better is a different thing entirely. His apology seemed genuine at the time.)

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