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Roderick

Feminism

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And then tegan finally deleted her Penny Arcade bookmark.

 

At this point I was only really interested in Checkpoint anyway.

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I think we need PETMAN to run a gamer conference so we don't have to be concerned about its perspective on issues of morality and ethics until it achieves sentience and murders us all.

 

I've decided to abstain from going to PETMAN Conf 2014 and... *load buzzing sound becomes audible in the background, sound of door being being mechanically destroyed*

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Further comments from PA (unsurprisingly, they're going for the censorship angle): http://kotaku.com/penny-arcade-artist-pulling-dickwolves-merchandise-wa-1245440640

 

I've been to PAX a few times now and while I've never personally felt excluded or mistreated because I'm a woman, but I also wasn't in that room when people cheered Dickwolves merchandise. It was petty and immature and goes directly against the idea of creating an inclusive space. It gives the impression that if you're a woman, the only way you'll be accepted into the space is if you keep quiet about jokes that bother you, because obviously fighting against perceived censorship is more important than being a decent human being. It's gross and sad, and I don't want to have any part of it.

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It wasn't meant to be a comment supporting rape or sexual assault, but rather one about censorship and the shirt-pulling pouring gasoline on a sensitive discussion. I know we did a poor job of elaborating on that on stage, and as the guy moving the discussion along at the Q&A, I'm really sorry for that.

 

No dude, making the shirt was throwing fuel on the fire.

 

Also, they're really sorry for not making it more clear that they regret censoring themselves, not antagonizing supporters or survivors of sexual assault.  Also, claiming their new policy is to not discuss complaints at the same time lamenting that they withdrew the monetization of the complaints is rich. 

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Claiming censorship (despite a complete lack of any sort of government intervention) when you get called out on your bullshit is the last refuge of scoundrels.

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personally if i ever did anything that resulted in a pro-rape group forming, i would regret that forever

I don't think I'd feel comfortable in a convention full of people who'd cheer at someone who regrets the time he made even a tiny concession to doing the right thing.

 

Yeah, it boggles the mind that, when you're a dude who's done some pretty questionable things decency-wise the past few years, what you really regret is the time you almost backed down from a fight with some rape survivors.

 

unsurprisingly, they're going for the censorship angle

Claiming censorship (despite a complete lack of any sort of government intervention) when you get called out on your bullshit is the last refuge of scoundrels.

 

The thing is, Penny Arcade is perfectly happy to censor themselves when legal action is threatened. When they got a takedown notice from American Greetings in 2003, the Strawberry Shortcake comic went down faster than lightning and received no further comment. So I feel like what we're getting here is that Penny Arcade are really just bullies, plain and simple. If you can scare or hurt them, they'll listen to you. If you can't, then fuck you, they do what they want.

 

Also, how is taking down an offensive shirt the inflammatory action here? Basically, what feelthedarkness said.

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Here's a question about something other than the well-documented fact that the dudes at Penny Arcade are assholes.

 

I date women (and female-assigned gender-queer people who have the same risk of sexual assault as women) who live relatively far away from me in Chicago. We often will have a date somewhere and, at the end of the night, take public transportation opposite ways to our homes.

 

Recently after a date like this, a partner had two men follow her for 2 blocks before she got close to her apartment and sprinted inside. It was a horrifying story to hear related to me and made me wish I was there walking her home that night.

 

But if I had did that I probably wouldn't have gotten home until 1 AM at the earliest, because she lives several miles in the opposite direction. So if I had offered (or offer to other partners in the future) to walk her home, I probably would have gotten (or will get) a firm "No, that's ok", right?

 

In that instance, is it appropriate for me to insist? And if so, how much? It's not that I think I'm the big strong man whose job it is to protect his women, but it is a fact that women are more likely to be harassed and/or potentially assaulted when they're alone and I'd like to prevent that sort of thing if I can. Am I being insulting or thoughtful?

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It's a hard call for me. On one hand, I hate the idea of rape-apoligists being empowered with a sense of solidarity while creating an uncomfortable environment for many; but on the other hand, it seems like having rape-apoligists wearing clothing that identifies them as such could be useful in figuring out who needs to be introduced to compassionate methods of getting attention.

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Here's a question about something other than the well-documented fact that the dudes at Penny Arcade are assholes.

 

I date women (and female-assigned gender-queer people who have the same risk of sexual assault as women) who live relatively far away from me in Chicago. We often will have a date somewhere and, at the end of the night, take public transportation opposite ways to our homes.

 

Recently after a date like this, a partner had two men follow her for 2 blocks before she got close to her apartment and sprinted inside. It was a horrifying story to hear related to me and made me wish I was there walking her home that night.

 

But if I had did that I probably wouldn't have gotten home until 1 AM at the earliest, because she lives several miles in the opposite direction. So if I had offered (or offer to other partners in the future) to walk her home, I probably would have gotten (or will get) a firm "No, that's ok", right?

 

In that instance, is it appropriate for me to insist? And if so, how much? It's not that I think I'm the big strong man whose job it is to protect his women, but it is a fact that women are more likely to be harassed and/or potentially assaulted when they're alone and I'd like to prevent that sort of thing if I can. Am I being insulting or thoughtful?

 

I think you're probably over-thinking it. Everyone is different and there's no blanket response that would work as a universal solution, anyway. You have to just gauge the response and decide if you think it's best or not. 

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Here's a question about something other than the well-documented fact that the dudes at Penny Arcade are assholes.

 

I date women (and female-assigned gender-queer people who have the same risk of sexual assault as women) who live relatively far away from me in Chicago. We often will have a date somewhere and, at the end of the night, take public transportation opposite ways to our homes.

 

Recently after a date like this, a partner had two men follow her for 2 blocks before she got close to her apartment and sprinted inside. It was a horrifying story to hear related to me and made me wish I was there walking her home that night.

 

But if I had did that I probably wouldn't have gotten home until 1 AM at the earliest, because she lives several miles in the opposite direction. So if I had offered (or offer to other partners in the future) to walk her home, I probably would have gotten (or will get) a firm "No, that's ok", right?

 

In that instance, is it appropriate for me to insist? And if so, how much? It's not that I think I'm the big strong man whose job it is to protect his women, but it is a fact that women are more likely to be harassed and/or potentially assaulted when they're alone and I'd like to prevent that sort of thing if I can. Am I being insulting or thoughtful?

 

It'd seem OTT to me to accompany her all the way home in such circumstances, especially if it's not someone you know particularly well (i.e. first few dates). It is expected that adults be capable of looking after themselves, and at that point she's not your woman. Getting overly protective at such a point might even come across as a bit lame.

 

With that said, avoiding this situation from occurring in the first place would be a sensible idea. You could date women closer to your home, you could pick a date spot closer to her home (which is less weird than going all the way to her home and then back to yours), or just pay for her to get a taxi to her door. Some women might not even want you to know where they live so insisting is not the way to go.

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It's a hard call for me. On one hand, I hate the idea of rape-apoligists being empowered with a sense of solidarity while creating an uncomfortable environment for many; but on the other hand, it seems like having rape-apoligists wearing clothing that identifies them as such could be useful in figuring out who needs to be introduced to compassionate methods of getting attention.

 

It also helps you identify who to save last in a theoretical burning building situation. Just saying. :-P

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It'd seem OTT to me to accompany her all the way home in such circumstances, especially if it's not someone you know particularly well (i.e. first few dates). It is expected that adults be capable of looking after themselves, and at that point she's not your woman. Getting overly protective at such a point might even come across as a bit lame.

 

With that said, avoiding this situation from occurring in the first place would be a sensible idea. You could date women closer to your home, you could pick a date spot closer to her home (which is less weird than going all the way to her home and then back to yours), or just pay for her to get a taxi to her door. Some women might not even want you to know where they live so insisting is not the way to go.

 

These are people I know well, am close to, and whose homes I have been to.

 

Obviously I wouldn't insist to the point of following them home against their wishes (because hey, now you're a creep!) but yeah, you guys are right, obviously their call.

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The thing is, street harassment happens all hours of the day. Offering to walk someone home at night, while considerate, doesn't fix the problem. Most of the harassment I've experienced happened in the middle of the day, in front of other people. It's a shitty, often undiscussed, reality of being recognizably female in public.

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One time my wife and I were hanging with a friend and she decided that she wanted to walk home before I wanted to leave. We were both cool about all of that, this was not at all uncommon for us. I got a call from her about an hour later where she was saying that she was hiding under a car from a bunch of drunk guys that jumped in their pickup and started following her. My friend and I jumped in his car and raced around the neighborhood looking for her. This was possibly the worst ten minutes of my life thus far.

We saw some guys tailgating out of a pickup and I described my wife and asked if they had seen her? They said no in such a way that I did not believe them, but it seemed very unlikely that they knew where she was. I tried to memorize them and continued on. It was horrifying. We eventually found her, the car owners saw her under their car and came out to see what was up. It was really scary.

She still walks around alone. Since then, she got shot with a bb gun (drive-by), solicited for sex and probably some stuff she hasn't told me about. As we get older, she gets more cautious, but it's her call.

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The thing is, street harassment happens all hours of the day. Offering to walk someone home at night, while considerate, doesn't fix the problem. Most of the harassment I've experienced happened in the middle of the day, in front of other people. It's a shitty, often undiscussed, reality of being recognizably female in public.

Harassment sure, but I'm pretty sure the potential for actual assault is higher at night.

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Harassment sure, but I'm pretty sure the potential for actual assault is higher at night.

I think I've read that the potential for actual assault is when she is with someone she knows.

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Shots fired!

...

Sorry, I just found the unintentional implication of that sequence of exchanges kind of amusing. Back to your serious discussion.

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I think it's fine to ask. If she doesn't want accompaniment, don't insist. I don't think it's unreasonable to go out of your way if you're concerned about their safety.

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I think I've read that the potential for actual assault is when she is with someone she knows.

 

Exactly right. That's why I'm not afraid to walk around at night by myself. Statistically, I know I'm much more likely to assaulted by an acquaintance than by a random stranger. Maybe that's a naive way of thinking, but it's the only way I can convince myself to leave my apartment after a certain hour.

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This thread is getting me dowwwwwwn. What a bummer. I know it happens. I can kind of in a small way relate, since I've been called names and laughed at and been pointed at on the street as well. Also been hit. It's no fun at all. Luckily, I live in really relaxed, friendly parts nowadays, where that sort of thing doesn't happen at all.

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Exactly right. That's why I'm not afraid to walk around at night by myself. Statistically, I know I'm much more likely to assaulted by an acquaintance than by a random stranger. Maybe that's a naive way of thinking, but it's the only way I can convince myself to leave my apartment after a certain hour.

Yes, but from the perspective of The Person She Knows Who Knows He Is Not Going To Assault Her, those stats don't really read the same. As someone who has never sexually assaulted anyone, I know that she has a ~0% chance of being assaulted by me.

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She still walks around alone. Since then, she got shot with a bb gun (drive-by)...

What? What the fuck? I mean I'm glad it's not real bullets, but the only people I imagine getting thrills from shooting BB guns at people are kids under the age of 11, and they don't drive.

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Seriously, the crowd cheering is the most upsetting part of that video).

 

I know people in the games industry are capable of change -- Idle Thumbs are a really great example of that -- but this Penny Arcade thing is just depressing and tiresome.

 

The thing i worry about now is that the conversation seems to be shifting strongly towards the idea of boycotting PAX.  Now i could be quite wrong about this, but i feel that no amount of boycotts or harshly worded articles criticising them is going to change PA's founders behavior.

 

And that's the end game here isn't it? Change? (and as they say change has to come from within)

 

What would (I feel) make them think twice and maybe genuinely self examine, is  hearing (face to face) from someone who's been affected by the issues, or if next time they make that sort of comment, they get booed.

 

As long as they think the response they are getting to their comments is a attack from outside they wont change. The more people who are boycotting PAX the less likely that they will get called on their BS or meet someone who will change their perspective.

 

Idk perhaps i'm being naive, but i don't want to think of them as irredeemable.

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