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Roderick

Feminism

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I read somewhere that in Soviet Russia as universities were coeded in the initial liberal wave, women went into medicine in disproportionate numbers to men. After a couple of generations, medicine did become a primarily female domain—degrading its value in society. Eventually tractor drivers' (generally a male domain) trumped doctor's salaries. Arbiters of value and worth in societies tend to be those in charge, so dudes.

Yikes. That's horrible.

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I read somewhere that in Soviet Russia as universities were coeded in the initial liberal wave, women went into medicine in disproportionate numbers to men. After a couple of generations, medicine did become a primarily female domain—degrading its value in society. Eventually tractor drivers' (generally a male domain) trumped doctor's salaries. Arbiters of value and worth in societies tend to be those in charge, so dudes.

Interesting. Do you think this is why politicians are so resistant to gender equality in their profession?

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I'd just like to stand up and be counted as someone who has one night stands and NSA sex (by which I assume we mean fuck-buddies), motivated not by insecurity or social pressure but by the fact that it's enjoyable, and knows plenty of women who do too. If it's done in an honest, healthy and safe (as far as is reasonable) way, it can be an amazing, positive and wholesome experience, and I count some of my one night stands among my fondest memories.

:tup:

Sorry, I didn't mean to come over as moralising earlier. Different things work for different people, and clearly, sexuality is so complex that there's no universal pattern that suits everyone.

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I'm a bit late on this, but as the topic is extremely free-wheeling it should be okay:

I'd just like to stand up and be counted as someone who has one night stands and NSA sex (by which I assume we mean fuck-buddies), motivated not by insecurity or social pressure but by the fact that it's enjoyable, and knows plenty of women who do too. If it's done in an honest, healthy and safe (as far as is reasonable) way, it can be an amazing, positive and wholesome experience, and I count some of my one night stands among my fondest memories.

Tart. :grin:

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Sure, but just so you know, the focus was more on NSA sex with strangers. "Fuck buddies", and people you know beforehand, don't really factor into what we were discussing.

Also, what you've written is remarkably... present tense?

Ha ha, I'm talking in general, but I don't currently do it because I'm in a monogamous relationship (although I'm also pro open relationships).

Ah yes, I see you specified "with strangers" at some point, but my observations apply to that as well. Anyway, I'm not delving back into that entire strand of the debate, I rather just wanted to contrast with this kind of stuff:

Exactly my experience too. Crap sex for everyone, or one person/both start to want deeper involvement. By no means saying this is an absolute trait or that I don't sometimes sleep with people casually myself, but the men I've known who really seem to get on with casual sex have tended to be shit people who see fucking women as conquering them, and don't care how good the sex is or how happy the other person is: just bragging rights.

Yufster, I said that 'NSA' sex SOUNDS appealing. The REALITY is that there isn't such a thing as 'no strings attached' sex (at least in my meagre experience - someone generally gets too involved), or at least it's not very common, but I wasn't talking about that.

of my friends, who are mostly guys, I can't think of one who enjoys no-strings-attached sex. All who have tried either become emotionally involved quickly, or have had 'awkward, failed one night stands' that they never want to repeat. A handful of my male friends have even been at the mercy of a woman who has insisted on a 'friends-with-benefits' scenario while they desperately want more. I know one person who likes one-night-stands and that's a woman.

I basically just wanted to point out that not only shit people do it and it can be awesome.

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Gotcha! (You did spring to mind when I wrote that, which is one of the reasons I wrote, "in my meagre experience" :))

I don't think I could ever be in an open relationship. I know I'd get jealous and too emotionally involved.

Regarding ONS, maybe I've just been unlucky. There's probably been times when I could have just enjoyed being close to someone, and not necessarily wanted to be with them, but whenever I've had one they've tended to be fraught with pressure and/or bad timing.

One thing I would say to the ladies looking for fuck buddies: You've got to give a guy at least two tries before you get an idea of how he'll actually perform. (I heard this from a female friend, and it's totally true.) The first time you're nervous and you're also getting used to eachother's bodies -- and everyone's body is different. The second time you start putting into practice what you learned the first time.

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I basically just wanted to point out that not only shit people do it and it can be awesome.

Yeah, again, apologies. As I said, it's not like I never do it myself, but like you I try to be responsible and a good person with it. My experience has definitely been skewed by working in a nightclub for a few years, where I got to see some really scummy things and people. I've known a few PUA types, and when I typed the bit you quoted I was thinking of a specific Yorkshireman who worked there. Choice quotes: "That bird seemed well up for it, and I went home with her, but she were dead mardy the morning after. No idea why" and "Fat birds are the best. They're desperate, you can do owt to 'em". Charming man ¬¬

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I wasn't going to bring up my anecdotal experience, but I'm emboldened by Ben's contribution, so I'll say that my experience is quite like his. I am in a monogamous relationship right now, but last year while I was between relationships, I slept with a variety of friends, acquaintances and strangers. (They are women; I'm a man.) In all cases, both parties appeared to be perfectly happy with the situation. Sometimes there would be a repeat performance, but oftentimes not. It never got awkward, unless I'm just terribly oblivious.

The worst thing to come out of it was a case of scabies.

This mostly happened in New York City, which I've come to believe is a region with a particularly high incidence of people who are very free with casual sex.

edit: As for pick-up artistry, I'd like to add that I've never gone out with the objective of finding someone to go home with. It just happens sometimes! I swear I'm not a creep.

edit 2: Swearing I'm not a creep probably makes me look like a creep.

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I guess with all of this recent feminism, misogyny, and games I don't understand how I'm supposed to feel to not be a jerk male. Can I like scantily clad ladies in my media sometimes? Can I like simply sexy ladies in my media? Is eye candy ever okay? Does every female character need to be grungy boring Alyx from Half Life or the mute from Portal?

It is all just a balance of the amount of pandering? Too many games with male gaze not enough with different portrayals of women? Is it okay for Michel Ancel to make the decision to have voluptuous sexy fairies in Rayman Origins even though they were not like that in the previous games? Is that misogynistic?

What kind of guilt am I supposed to feel if any at all?

And I'm not referring to the stupid sex and violence mix towards women of many recent games like Batman and Hitman. More Lollipop Chainsaw where she is not a product of being tied up and punched in the noise multiple times.

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(They are women; I'm a man.)

I like how this can be read as a justification rather than a clarification.

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I like how this can be read as a justification rather than a clarification.

Haha, wow, yeah. "Man, woman; thus copulation." Definitely not what I meant.

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Two things made me sad today. Firstly this: http://www.leftfootf...at-a-euro-exit/

Totally unnecessary use of that photo in what is either an attempt to undermine her politically by sexualising her, or potentially it is just to cater to their audience who they believe to be mostly AHDH below-average-intelligence dudes... This was discussed in my facebook feed earlier with people discussing her attractiveness, in between some posts were people were discussing whether they 'would or wouldn't' Louise Mensch (who is a female conservative politician for those of you not from the UK). One of the comments on the link was that Teresa May should 'take a leaf from her book' in terms of how to make herself up (Teresa May is another female politician in the UK).

Second thing was being in a shop and seeing the magazine section... 95% of the magazines had highly dolled-up women with their cleavage hanging out on the cover. Just meat being used to try and sell whatever fucking dreadful stuff filled the rest of the pages. TV guides, womens magazines, mens magazines, various other topics that I couldn't decipher (because they were in German). A really bleak little glimpse at the way society views women. And when that's the way we're presented, it then didn't seem so surprising that a guy on the train spent the entire journey staring at my chest. I mean why shouldn't he - that's what we're all here for after all, to be ogled and admired.

I've just found a third thing that's made me sad: http://www.reddit.co...9t7t8?context=2

Most people in the world, it seems, are dickheads. I think if I was god for a day, I'd exterminate all the men who would send abuse/pictures of their dicks to women on the internet, and all women who would read Heat/Cosmo/shit like that. Then I'd see where that left us, and fine tune it from there. I think that would leave us with only fairly well-meaning and intelligent sorts. Also judging from my recent experience of trying to wheel someone around a city in a wheelchair, I'd exterminate everyone else too.

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That's pretty bad regarding the story about our finance minister, but there's a deeper, more depressing side to it. Back when she rose to the head of her party, she just looked like a school teacher that went into politics (which is what she is, although us school teachers are highly educated over here). On the national stage, she got blamed of looking stiff etc. until she got that fancy hair do and changed how she dresses (not like that, though). Then a few people called her a tart, but mostly things calmed down.

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It's so weird that people take this bizarre, innate offense at women in positions of power or influence. Like that fuckwit who sent a load of abuse to Felicia Day on Twitter; he had no idea who she was, he just assumed that because she was a woman, she was useless/attention seeking/contributing nothing. And thought this assumption made it appropriate for him to send her a load of abuse which he later "justified" by saying he thought he was sending it to her privately, not publicly. Because you should always keep your abuse away from the judging eyes of the public, right.

It seems like there is some desperate, insecure subset of men who are scared of losing their power and privilege, scared of women being in their little privileged circle and showing them up. I don't think they think this is the case, or even think that they are sexist or misogynistic; they just have unexplained angry knee-jerk reactions like that Felicia Day abuser, which they probably justify in other ways. Or sending women threats on the internet, or pictures of their dicks to reduce these women to objects of sexual desire or otherwise attempting to reduce their value. However, ultimately all it's doing is making them collectively look like a bunch of insecure idiots and highlighting that they are the bottom rung of society, not the women they abuse. When I see stuff like that, it doesn't make me feel like the inferior sex - it makes me feel far superior to these people who think their own dick is so great that they want to show everyone, or who are so narrow minded that they send abuse to a woman who has done more for the games industry than they ever will.

I went to the zoo yesterday and the chimps had a similar fascination with their own dicks.

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Because you should always keep your abuse away from the judging eyes of the public, right.

Damn public, always inferring that my words and actions are indicative of my views and beliefs.

Lay off the chimps, though. Chimps are neat. Although not as neat as capuchin monkeys. I swear I could watch videos of capuchin monkeys every day.

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I read somewhere that in Soviet Russia as universities were coeded in the initial liberal wave, women went into medicine in disproportionate numbers to men. After a couple of generations, medicine did become a primarily female domain—degrading its value in society. Eventually tractor drivers' (generally a male domain) trumped doctor's salaries. Arbiters of value and worth in societies tend to be those in charge, so dudes.

I would really, really, really like a source on that one. Not because I don't believe it (even though I don't [i agree with the conclusion though]), but because if it's true and documented I want to have more detail.

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I would really, really, really like a source on that one. Not because I don't believe it (even though I don't [i agree with the conclusion though]), but because if it's true and documented I want to have more detail.

Well, the part that brainy jobs often payed less than relatively simple jobs is true. I don't know how that came about exactly, though. And don't have any links for you.

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Somewhat random aside, but I was at my dad's this weekend. On the fridge they have a magnet that says "A woman is like a tea bag. You never know how strong she is until you put her in hot water." Kind of made me rage a bit, why is it only a woman that's like that?

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Somewhat random aside, but I was at my dad's this weekend. On the fridge they have a magnet that says "A woman is like a tea bag. You never know how strong she is until you put her in hot water." Kind of made me rage a bit, why is it only a woman that's like that?

Edited that last bit out, eh?

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I'm reading a fascinating book at the moment which I recommend to everyone... it's called Sex and Punishment, and is about how humans have attempted to control peoples sex lives in the past 4000 years. Obviously there is a lot about women and homosexuality. One thing that made me sad was to realise that the root of homophobia, historically speaking, lies in misogyny - even before the advent of Christianity when homosexual encounters were common, it was considered disgusting to be in the position of the woman. It 'feminized' men and so only young boys/men of lower social status were able to be the receptive partners. The dominant partner was still just as masculine. Male-male sex was frowned upon because the man was lowering himself to the status of a woman.

It makes sense seeing as how to this day, misogynists and sexists are nearly always homophobic too. I always wondered why exactly it was that some men are so violently repulsed by the mere idea of another man fancying them or thinking of them in that way at all... could it be because it places them in the uncomfortable position of a woman? They are also always the sort of men who inflict horrible pushiness/unwanted attention on women and excuse it with statements like 'they should be grateful for the attention".

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Also worrying was that the attitudes from 4000 years ago are still not uncommon today. Not just in extreme counties like Sudan either. Look at the vile misogyny of PUA forums... the steadfast belief that women are inferior, men should be allowed to cheat but their wives should be controlled in every aspect of their sexuality, that their value is only worth as much as their virginity and their obedience, and that disobedience should be punished with violence. Even in ancient Rome, men were whining that giving women even a small amount of independence would threaten their rights as men wah wah wah. Even before feminism was a conceivable idea, men across the world were afraid of women having any power, scared of the threat of losing their privilege.

And these attitudes are still widespread today. I can point you to a forum where I recently saw a conversation about some guy who wanted to poison a girl who he believed had cheated on his friend, and where the men discuss how women shouldn't have jobs, should stay at home, are incapable of staying faithful (while they believe it's their right to cheat as much as they like) and while, although their primary goal is to have sex with as many women as possible, they refer to women as sluts and whores even in casual conversation. It makes me wonder how much of these attitudes is actually inherent within most of us? How much of it do we educate away? How far removed are we, really, from what we consider to be animals?

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