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Roderick

Feminism

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Pretty much every single person who's posted in this thread has sprinkled or framed their intelligent discourse with confrontation at some point.

I'm sure I'm guilty of this. Sorry, everyone!

Well, that was the point. I wasn't passing judgment on feminism, its contractors, detractors, definitions, or connotations in any capacity. I was attempting to make a purely objective observation on what it meant to people (whether or not I succeeded is, of course, another matter entirely), and then a subjective assertion on what it would take to change things.

It's hard not to react negatively when you say things that sound so similar to the (exhaustingly repetitive) rhetoric of the opponents of equality. It's not immediately obvious that you're speaking in an academic sense.

I think a disconnect is occurring, because others in the conversation are arguing from a position of deeply-held passions. Those arguments have been honed to a sharp edge because of the very real opposition which lurks around every corner.

I'm sorry that we keep bringing the knives out on you, but I think it would behoove you to state your positions more clearly. I know that's kind of a half-assed apology ("I'm sorry," followed by "here's what you did to cause this"), but I think of equal importance to the civility which Ben X advocates is an emphasis on clarity of communication.

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Being a dude who hides behind a banner of free speech to perpetuate a status quo of psychological oppression—your sense of (entitlement to) objectivity is false false false.

Edited by MrHoatzin

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Being a dude who hides behind a banner of free speech to perpetuate a status quo of psychological oppression—your sense of (entitlement to) objectivity is false false false.

um

"okay"

Given that I'm talking about the public perception of what feminism is actually all about, according to your logic, I'm more entitled to objectivity than someone, quote-unquote, in the know.

However.

I honestly don't care if I'm misquoted. If/when it happens, I'll make an effort to clarify for and/or correct the misquoter. Beyond that, it's out of my hands, anyway.

I did my part! I have no interest in continuing to talk about this. The previous discussion re: jokes, humor, etc.? Hell yes. Not this accusation of perpetuation of bigotry. Now, I'm out.

It's possible you were joking, in which case, I apologize. But given my experience in this entire thread so far... I doubt it?

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It's taken me a while to formulate a response to this. I'm sorry it's so long.

I don't feel the need to express any sort of emotion for something like that. Do you?

Firstly, I was talking about all of your posts in this thread, not one point you tried to make. Secondly: Yes. Absolutely, fuck yes I do.

There's a ton of religious, political and economic things on which I basically don't give a shit if people agree with me or not. That's because those issues are mostly in bubbles: They either don't affect everyone, or don't really harm anyone, or are too big for people to do much anything about, or are too subjective for us to have an immutable conclusion rather than just a belief, or they're just sideshows.

Privilege is not like that though. Occasionally, this thread has diverged into discussing things other than feminism: non-sexist, but highly analogous prejudices. Privilege is the reason this discussion makes sense like that. It is an over-arching problem underpinning sexism, racism, homo- and trans-phobia, xenophobia, stigmas related to mental health and disability, and class prejudice. Privilege is not (necessarily) the kind of militant prejudice you'd associate with politically extreme groups. Because they don't identify with those groups though, many people say things like "I'm not sexist" and are blind to their privilege. I cannot stress enough: Not being actively prejudiced does not mean prejudice is not within you, or that you are not contributing to its cultural presence.

Privilege is not just a problem for all those "other" people. It's not something we can tinker with academically, or idly turn over like a toy in our hands. It's a part of, and a problem, for all of us. Twig, the way you talk about it reeks of privilege failing to acknowledge itself. Nobody called you a bigot. Your language very clearly denotes that you see yourself as distinct and separate to these issues. Regardless of whether you accept it, you are not. I can't speak for anyone else here, but that is certainly why reading your posts in this thread have wound me up so much (I have generally refrained from replying).

Blindness to privilege creates small, passive bits of society: Systems and unconscious responses that are inherently prejudiced or biased against other classes and types of person, yet aren't immediately noticeable. It's no great conspiracy; it's just a horrible, communal accident. These chunks of privilege are not from a holy book, an economic policy or a political manifesto. They're our personalities and beliefs. They're the ways we automatically act. They're our values and our motives, not just the surface ones that comprise our self image, but all of them, the tiniest ones and the ones buried so deep we can't necessarily think well about them. They're the things we've piled on top of each other deep down in our unconscious from the earliest parts of our lives onward. Things drummed into us by our peers, the stories we tell with media, and the images we consume. Privilege is about fundamental contradictions between self image and motives, and those motives are not the broad brush strokes we and our peers paint ourselves with: they're the tiniest, most subtle and automatic parts of us. This study, linked to earlier by Yufster, is an excellent attempt to begin excavating some of that in people.

Privilege is not just about what happens in the world, it is about who we are. There is no system of organising humans that has ever, or could, completely eliminate privilege and inequality. Each of us has the power to contribute to its diminishment though. We can aim to make a world where there is less privilege, not more. Unlike the previously mentioned ton of religious, political and economic issues, privilege is the only issue that has ever genuinely struck me as a "with us or against us" kind of thing. It is such a culturally all-pervading force, that if you are not conscious of it, you are contributing to it. Without even trying, you are making the world a slightly worse place for everyone. Yes, everyone; not just discriminated against groups.

I can't sit and pass judgement from some jet propelled throne of impartiality: I unavoidably play a part. Whether they like it or not, whether they choose to acknowledge it or not, absolutely no one is on the sidelines of this issue. Culture is not something that drips out of Hollywood's teat, or that gets voted on in parliament, or that's only created on a stave or a canvas or in a theatre. It's the daily aggregate of all our actions, beliefs, and motives. I have no choice or power over the systems that put us all here. What I do have the power to do is challenge myself and try to make a small difference every day, and that is something I see as a moral imperative; one that exists so far beyond and above things like left versus right or atheism versus theism.

Sometimes, people do the most horrific shit to each other. On larger scales, it doesn't come down to baddies hiding in the bushes or a few bad apples: it's the sickest latent parts of people who see themselves as good; fomented, normalised and mobilsed in the service of something else. The further we can all push ourselves from that, the better a shot we all have.

Twig, you seem to see this as a temporary mental diversion. I see it as the major framework of our lives. I hope the issues that people get really emotional about in a hundred years are much smaller than the prejudices we're dealing with now.

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Interesting - I've repeatedly told Asian (indian) friends that I am a racist. They insist that I'm not, due to a lack of any overt NF white power kind of behaviour I assume, but I know in myself, sometimes when I see a different skin colour, a thought may pop into my head (guard your valuables! for example). It makes me uncomfortable that my mind is capable of that, and makes me question if I am actually as non-racist as I think I am. I usually try to get over it by resolving not to next time, should it ever occur. This never occurs with regards to females, however - perhaps I have successfully purged that, or I never had it in the first place, generally having grown up around a strong woman (my mother) and being married to one.

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I think it's fair to say that if you're holding yourself to such high standards, and trying to purge such reactions, that it's a bit harsh to call yourself racist.

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Nachimir, your post is very interesting but I got a bit lost around your definition of privileges. "These chunks of privilege are not from a holy book, an economic policy or a political manifesto. They're our personalities and beliefs".

Sometimes, people do the most horrific shit to each other. On larger scales, it doesn't come down to baddies hiding in the bushes or a few bad apples: it's the sickest latent parts of people who see themselves as good; fomented, normalised and mobilsed in the service of something else. The further we can all push ourselves from that, the better a shot we all have.

I think that is one of the biggest challenge of modern western society : acknowledging that some of the most mundane aspects of our lifestyle are supported by creating misery for another human being. For instance, me writing this message was made possible by, on one hand, the fantastic freedom of 20th century scientific research in one part of the world, but on the other, by exporting manufacturing processes akin slavery to make the physical object affordable.

I don't think anybody can quite grasp how systematic and horrific this is, and when/if they do, I wouldn't blame them for deciding not to radically changing the way they live. Because I didn't. Not fully anyway. I'll always be commending the ones that do, but I wouldn't condemn the ones that do passively benefit from the system while not championning it. I find it difficult to scope with the scale of the phenomenon.

In any case, privileges are a though nut to crack: my grand-parents were miners and farmers, my parents were teachers and by climbing the social ladder on their own, they claimed social benefits and ended up in the upper-upper-middleclass. Those benefits could be regarded as privileges by people who didn't enjoy the same process of promotion yet, my parents don't think themselves as outrageously privileged. They worked hard to gain those for themselves and their children; so that they could aspire to more. And my parents are not evil, they are socially conscious and can empathize with other people, but their social evolution made them more aware of the gap with people in higher social strata instead of the ones below.

If you replicate this thought process across all layers of society, it explains why privileges are recognized in other people rather than ourselves. I for one, know I'm privileged, because I managed to reach some comfortable stop by doing Video games :tup: . I feel a lot of what some of my acquaintances call misplaced guilt, because I know some of those privileges are not deserved but I still want to enjoy them and somewhat feel entitled to them. I can tell this isn't quite right, but I'm a long way from completely reconciling what I expect from a society I participate in with my desires as an individual.

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I think it's fair to say that if you're holding yourself to such high standards, and trying to purge such reactions, that it's a bit harsh to call yourself racist.

Well, thanks for the vote of confidence :tup: - but I can hardly claim to be 'non-prejudiced' if prejudices leap to mind automatically!

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I feel the same Scrobbs. I recognise bits of prejudice that are buried in me sometimes, and they're very dissonant with who I identify as and who I want to be. I think that's an important difference: We don't think it's okay in the way a card carrying BNP member might, for instance, and we try to kill it off.

Nachimir, your post is very interesting but I got a bit lost around your definition of privileges.

I'm not sure how or where it lost you (and that's absolutely not intended as a criticism), but I'll try to clarify.

The systemic problems with exploitation that you touch on are a different discussion; though that's not to say it isn't important or that I don't agree with you. Privilege as I refer to it is not about what we have, nor is it specifically about consumerism or guilt for what we have. It's about the way the world treats us. It is my privilege, as a straight white male, to not suffer the same forms of discrimination, examination, and expectation as people from other groups. That is not something I ever earned, it's just the world and circumstances I was born into. My genes, my sexuality, and my race are normal as normal gets in the society I live in. That means my life is easier than other people's. The life of a woman, or someone in an ethnic minority, or someone who grew up in the poor neighbourhood half a mile away from me, is not functionally identical or equivalently difficult to mine.

An example: Body image issues are aimed at both men and women. Women are continually judged and criticised in relation to how close to those ideals they are. Men might also be presented with lofty body ideals, but they pretty much get a free pass to be lazy and fat, especially from each other. "What does he look like?" or "How attractive is he?" are usually not among the first questions raised mentally in relation to a man. The beliefs and attitudes that reside within people and lead to this situation being normal are what I mean by "chunks of privilege". There are many more examples related to every form of prejudice mentioned in this thread.

The idea of meritocracy holds that anyone can succeed at anything, and if they don't they're just not trying hard enough or must have made some bad choices. The flipside of that is the idea that anyone who has something must deserve it along with the way they are largely treated in the world. Meritocracy is, in a very best-case scenario, a flawed idea that completely discounts significant and sometimes overpowering social factors.

Without thinking about this, it's easy for my personality and behaviour to just nestle into that rut of privilege, and to not perceive it as hugely disadvantageous to others. Patronising and oppressive attitudes to women in the first two thirds of the Twentieth Century were normalised and not particularly noticeable to the people enacting them. I'm pretty sure many things in our present behaviour and culture will look just as weird and regressive to our eventual descendants. There was and will be no lightbulb moment of sudden social change; it's a cultural change, and that's something that runs at a glacial pace.

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Thanks for the patient clarification :tup: , I think I needed that to grasp your whole point.

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Well, thanks for the vote of confidence :tup: - but I can hardly claim to be 'non-prejudiced' if prejudices leap to mind automatically!

I think, as Nachimir hinted at, it's important to separate those undesired elements of your behaviour from your sense of identity. Yes, you have thoughts and feelings which could be described as racist, and it's important that you identify those, but to then self-identify as a racist seems to me to be in some sense giving up: it implies that these impulses are innate and immutable, something to which you must resign yourself. It may be impossible to ever entirely rid oneself of prejudice, but it's critical that we continuously whittle away what prejudice we have, just as the pursuit of perfection is worthwhile regardless of perfection's unattainability.

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for identifying one's own faults, and am quite disposed to associated feelings of shame; but I refuse to describe my identity in terms I find vile and reprehensible, and I think it may be damaging to. Besides, it gives the real monsters credit by association.

I don't know. Perhaps I'm way off-base. I'm by no measure well-qualified to make declarations on a subject so important. I just suspect that it's more useful to see these things as germs to be exorcized rather than a core part of your being.

(Sorry if I got it wrong. And sorry for the mixed metaphor.)

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Firstly, I was talking about all of your posts in this thread, not one point you tried to make.

Well, that's interesting. I thought I got pretty involved in the discussion about humor. Part of the reason I stopped, in fact, is because I was afraid if I kept going I'd start screaming at some fools at the internet. As far as I'm concerned, everyone who disagreed with me is well-see-you-almost-made-me-do-it. Trust me, if we'd had this discussion in the real world, with our mouth-holes, I'd have called everyone involved stupid multiple times. Not necessarily because I think people are idiots. It's just, uh, I can get too emotionally involved in things, and that's kind of a default go-to thing when I get flustered. But at least in real life people can take my extreme overreactions for what they are: a dumb dude talkin'. I try to moderate myself on the internet because 1) I have time to actually think about my responses, instead of being put on the spot, and 2) it's hard to read text the right way! C'MOOON!

Secondly: Yes. Absolutely, fuck yes I do.

Well, that's interesting. Again! I am of the opinion that completely objective observations should involve zero emotion. SCIENCE! Or whatever. The motivation for making those observations can, of course, be overflowing with anger, disgust, desire, etc. Maybe even the results make you excited as all hell. But when it comes time to make those observations, you gots ta reel it in, guy! It is straight-up crazy to present them with emotion. It taints your argument. It marks you as someone involved. Someone biased. That's bad! In my opinion.

Twig, you seem to see this as a temporary mental diversion.

I'm sorry you feel that way. You're wrong. The misunderstanding, I guess, lies in that I'd rather not waste my energy continuing to argue about things when we've already reached a stopping point. Running around in circles is hardly constructive, and that's a point we had reached in discussing of humor. Following that, I made an observation and drew a conclusion from that observation, and was subsequently accused of intentionally perpetuating bigotry (based on the previous discussion, granted, but it was used as leverage to dismiss my observations). Given this insult to my person, fuck that. I have better things to do! Just for the sake of saying it: had it been a dismissal of my conclusion, rather than my observation, I'd have been much more forgiving. Conclusions - especially on a topic such as this - are almost always subjective, unless you're dealing with hard numbers and statistics.

The rest of your post is interesting but has nothing to do with why I posted the way I did, so I'm not going to respond to it. Also, you may be interested to know that you've made me self-conscious now, so I went back and spiced things up with more exclamation points and a couple ALL-CAPSes. You've also forced me to turn this into the thing I hate most! A thread derailment about me. ):

Scrobbs: Pretty much everybody has these kinds of thoughts, no matter how much they might deny it. Men for women, women for men, whites for blacks, blacks for whites. Sometimes they're negative thoughts, sometimes they're positive. It doesn't even really matter what the thoughts are. It's how we act on them that makes us who we are, that marks as as good or bad people. I wouldn't spend so much time worrying about random thoughts that might occur to you. At least not until you go on a murderous rampage. Then you can start worrying!

(I mean, not that we shouldn't always strive to better ourselves. Just don't let it bother you!)

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It was not an ad hominem attack, it was a one-sentence summary of your stance (and its implication) in service of dismissing the premise that you can be impartial on the topic to begin with. This is not a dis of your intelligence or whatever—this is a feature of your privilege.

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But you're wrong. Anyone can be impartial when making observations. Literally anyone.

I'm not talking about the actual definition of feminism or what people want to be the definition. I'm talking about what people in general believe. You never actually even said I was wrong. People tend to associate feminism with women. Tell me I'm wrong! If you... do, I, uh, I don't know what to say. It's kind of a fact.

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Well, thanks for the vote of confidence :tup: - but I can hardly claim to be 'non-prejudiced' if prejudices leap to mind automatically!

As long as you don't ACT on your prejudices, and especially if you try to ignore them, then I think you're doing just fine.

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But you said that the fact that feminism usually gets publicity at the hands of a woman does not help the fact that people think that feminism is about women fighting against men. This implies that it would be better or less confusing if it got publicity mostly at the hands of men, does it not?

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I said that was part of the reason, along with the word itself! And I was making literally zero judgment on whether or not it's a bad thing at the time. As I said, I was replying to Yufster, who expressed a wish that people as a whole would come to better understand what feminism is all about.

Now, entirely separate from anything I've said on the topic prior, I will make a judgment.

I agree with Yufster's sentiment.

Your apparent distaste with what I said seems to stem entirely from a miscommunication. That sucks! I will repeat: prior to this post, I was not making any judgment.

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Privilege as I refer to it is not about what we have, nor is it specifically about consumerism or guilt for what we have. It's about the way the world treats us. It is my privilege, as a straight white male, to not suffer the same forms of discrimination, examination, and expectation as people from other groups.

How clearly can you really separate that, though? A poorly dressed or groomed person will get a different treatment from many people compared to a really well-dressed one. Of course, that is something that one can change about himself/herself, even if someone from a higher class has a much easier way of it. But perhaps that is quite minor in the face of a prevalent gender/race/sexuality based privilege.

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I think you answered your own question. I absolutely agree, dress influences. The effects of privilege are persistent and not so easily surmounted.

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The toilet that is xbox live stopped me playing on it long ago. When I first got live, in 2006, it was merely the latest form of the online MP drug that I'd first sampled in 2000 on PC with Q3 and CS. It didn't take long for me to stop enjoying it as much and eventually just stop altogether - purely because of the inter-player communication. The UK gov't, in an effort to combat online bullying, is suggesting a form of 'REALID' that Blizzard uses, and in a way I agree with it. However, due to the way that the UK gov't comports itself with any matters of online ID, tracking, log-keeping rules, (or indeed pretty much anything of late) I simply don't trust them to not balls it up and reduce everyone's freedoms as much as they possibly can.

Er... OT, sorry.

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