Feminism

[Nachimir]

Yeah, I don't think it got too bad. Divided opinions, but its not like we were all flaming each other or something.

[tabacco]

Yeah, I don't think it got too bad. Divided opinions, but its not like we were all flaming each other or something.

No, YOU'RE stupid!

[MrHoatzin]

: : : : :

[Twig]

what in the darn-heck happened in here

I avoid posting in these kinds of threads except for when I can avoid actually talking about the topic. Mostly because I feel like a lot of the stuff that triggers an anti-bigotry tirade is, often enough, a joke - and should be taken as such. There are plenty of ways in which people of different sexes, races, creeds are not equal, but it always pisses me right the fuck off when people get angry at jokes and assume there's some hateful intent behind them. But then I come from the school of thought that says, "You have the right to be offended by my joke, but you don't have the right to stop me from making that joke." Obviously, not everything is a joke! But it is not uncommon.

This isn't really relevant to anything. It's just something I've been not saying for a while for fear of offending someone, and I finally felt like saying it. U:

Obviously I'm biased, because I'm not a woman, but I feel like what I'm talking about happens far more often with feminists than it does any other anti-bigotry group? EH. It sucks being the stereotypical, middle-class, white male when trying to talk about this sort of thing. Nobody ever picks on the white dude! Although, when I was young, there were a bunch of black kids in my neighborhood who, I think, picked on me just for being white (or, at least, "different" from them)! Sometimes they'd run up to my house late at night and knock on my window really hard before running away. Other times they'd chase me down the street with snowballs, calling me horrible names like "Jimbo" and "Bill Nye". (I am not making this up. It made me laugh then, and it makes me laugh even more, now. They really did call me Bill Nye, as if that should hurt my feelings.)

Well anyway yeah so that's me and feminism (???).

[MrHoatzin]

The thing with most jokes about women made by dudes is that they come from a position of entrenched power. "HA HA MAKE ME A SAMMICH" is not funny because the punchline is, "WOMEN, AMIRITE?!" There is no content to it that is not plain and simple bullying. Public feminists tend to be strong-willed people who get a lot of stupid backhanded nonsense from the internet and the society at large and they have grown calloused and impatient with everything that smells of patriarchy. It is false to boil it down to women/feminists have no sense of humor just because you stepped on a landmine that one time.

Amanda Marcotte once chewed my head off when I gave her shit for her horrible flash-photography of food. To my defense, I wanted to offer advice on how to take better pics without much effort (she has since started using instagram which goes a long way).

Sometimes (often?) I fail to engage the correct filters and talk to people I've just (or never) met with the same rough playful tone I reserve for my closest friends. On top of that, when the topic at hand is critiquing art I turn all filters off—stupidly unaware that people outside of art circles will read it as so much random hostility.

Though my goal was ultimately to be helpful, I opened with "ARGH, please never photograph food again!" —which pretty much closed the conversation before it opened it. She ripped me a new one and accused me of mansplaining—and she was correct! There was absolutely no way for me to give her unsolicited photography tips without it coming out as patronizing. None. I shouldn't have even bothered—not to mention with that aggressive ass opening salvo. I have no idea what I was thinking. It made sense at the time, I suspect.

This doesn't make her humorless or whatever. It makes me a random jerk on the internet—a random jerk who just wanted to give her photography tips—but a random jerk all the same. It doesn't matter that Amanda Marcotte is unable to have a correct opinion on certain topics—music, for example—and she's often unwilling to entertain counterpoints when she's made up her mind. This fundamentalism is not a factor of feminism per se—it is due to the fact that the women who chose to be public feminist figures have to wade through hurricanes of patriarchal shit every fucking day of their lives. It takes an epic level of stubbornness and strength to hold that ground. They have developed a mode that takes no prisoners. Your bruised dudely ego will just have to shut the fuck up sometimes and pay attention to the nature of the jokes that are being made. Inform yourself of where the mines are before you blissfully take a stroll through that minefield.

[castorp]

words

Mh, if jokes happen around friends, people you know, hell, no problem, all's okay I'd say (that is okay with them, obviously). But if you are around people, strangers, in the cafeteria for example, still just talking to your friends, but with lots of other people around who can hear you, then the 'joke' becomes part of the problem - part of that which alienates the people who are discriminated against from society, part of the discrimination.

And yeah, as a white western dude who is not a well informed activist in the concerning field it would probably be good to always take your opinion of some issues you are just not the victim of with a lot of humility. When 'feminists', or other involved people take issue with what you say, it could very well be that they do that for a reason.

What happened to you when you were young sounds like bullying and even if they bullied you because you are white, it still has just about nothing to do with the discussions in this thread. But it does suck, no question.

[Chris]

Yeah, I think the thing that people in a relatively privileged position sometimes don't keep in mind all the time (and I say relatively privileged because obviously not every white male is as privileged as every other; the whole thing is a spectrum of course) is that forms of prejudice or bullying, even if seemingly lighthearted in some cases, are institutionalized in the case of women and many ethnic minorities.

Obviously people of all stripes get picked on and bullied in all sorts of contexts, but generally speaking in Western cultures, white males aren't inherently subjected to institutionalized disadvantages and power structures. Individual people may have all kinds of disadvantages, and that's also bad, but the reason it's a particularly crucial issue with respect to feminism, for example, is that simply by virtue of being a woman at all, regardless of any other factors, it is all too common (on the internet or otherwise) for people to be grossly disregarded or abused.

[Sal Limones]

The three posts above me are great and you guys are awesome.

This, I think, was already posted earlier, but I think merits repetition -- this is specifically about rape jokes, but applies to most "ironic" sexism in public-

Here is why I refuse to take rape jokes sitting down…

Because 6% of college-aged men, slightly over 1 in 20, will admit to raping someone in anonymous surveys, as long as the word "rape" isn't used in the description of the act—and that's the conservative estimate. Other sources double that number (pdf).

A lot of people accuse feminists of thinking that all men are rapists. That's not true. But do you know who think all men are rapists?

Rapists do.

They really do. In psychological study, the profiling, the studies, it comes out again and again.

Virtually all rapists genuinely believe that all men rape, and other men just keep it hushed up better. And more, these people who really are rapists are constantly reaffirmed in their belief about the rest of mankind being rapists like them by things like rape jokes, that dismiss and normalize the idea of rape.

Please keep that in mind, as well as the fact that what may come off as an obvious joke to you may actually have been said in earnest by someone before, and the person seeing your joke may have been on the receiving end of a sincere version of it. This person would have no way of knowing whether you're serious or not, if s/he doesn't know you really well. For example, "go back to Mexico if you can't take a compliment" may seem too over-the-top hilarious for anyone to actually mean something like that, but the guy who said it to me was serious (and loud, and scary).

[ThunderPeel2001]

It seems like TP got his wish anyway, as the thread is derailed.

This thread seems really healthy to me.

And for the record, I was arguing for the people who were being rudely told to leave the thread. I love this topic, it just tends to lead to arguments, which causes rifts, which affects relationships in the community, which affects the whole tone of the forum. At some point you have to ask yourself what's more important: That we all agree on what feminism is, or that we all get along. Don't try and paint me as The Lone Guy Who Wants This Thread To Die, when there's plenty of us who see danger ahead.

My point was: If enough people want to see this thread sink, they've earned the right to have their voices taken seriously, not just be told to go away. That was it. And I only say this because of the history of this thread -- which has shown that we get easily massively derailed into arguments about race(!), arguments about what sexism actually is, and whether "All Female" car insurance companies are an example of men being discriminated against.

Still, everything seems cordial so far this time... (tries to not cynically glance at his watch).

[Twig]

Mh, if jokes happen around friends, people you know, hell, no problem, all's okay I'd say (that is okay with them, obviously). But if you are around people, strangers, in the cafeteria for example, still just talking to your friends, but with lots of other people around who can hear you, then the 'joke' becomes part of the problem - part of that which alienates the people who are discriminated against from society, part of the discrimination.

This is where I absolutely do not agree. It is a problem because people let it be a problem. I am offended because jokes aren't funny, not because the content is offensive. "MAKE ME A SAMMICH", for example, is just a stupid joke. It has not been funny to me since I grew out of the age when insulting people for the sake of insulting people was amusing. Sure, I roll the fuck outta my eyes when I hear a joke like that, but that's all it deserves. An eye-rolling and subsequent dismissal. Ignore jokes if you don't find them funny. Maybe even be a little offended! But keep it to yourself, because the next time you're laughing at a joke, know that someone, somewhere out there, is gonna be crying themselves to sleep if they hear you laughing at THAT JOKE.

Also! Some people will use that sandwich line with the intention of actually causing emotional distress. That is not a joke, anymore. It's all about context. If it's a joke, it's a joke. If it's not a joke, it's not a joke. The only thing I care about when it's a joke is whether or not it's funny. Besides, taken out of context, most everything anyone says could be found offensive to someone on the planet. I think it's ridiculous that people let words hurt them so much. What're you gonna do? Cut everyone's tongues out?

What happened to you when you were young sounds like bullying and even if they bullied you because you are white, it still has just about nothing to do with the discussions in this thread. But it does suck, no question.

I only shared the story because it's an amusing anecdote tangentially related to what I was talking about - being The White Dude. I think it's hilarious what happened to me, and I harbor no ill will toward anyone involved.

I guess also I should say that even though I am The White Dude and have no idea what it's like to be hounded for that (aside from that anecdote), I do know very much what it's like to be bullied nonstop for years on end. The butt of many jokes. I dealt with it by growing a thicker skin. Maybe some people are just incapable of growing a thicker skin. I dunno.

It is false to boil it down to women/feminists have no sense of humor just because you stepped on a landmine that one time.

I also never said that. I said that it often happens that way. Jokes offend the fuck out of people of all categories. Sometimes they're offended on behalf of others, and sometimes they're offended on behalf of themselves. Everyone has this arbitrary line that cannot be crossed, but that line is completely dynamic depending on the topic under heat. Some people will be offended by jokes about race and not offended by jokes about abortion. Some people will be offended by jokes about politics and not offended by jokes about rape. It's stupid. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it.

I've sort of steered this topic in a direction that I didn't really intend. This is why I avoided talking for so long! );

[Sal Limones]

I've sort of steered this topic in a direction that I didn't really intend. This is why I avoided talking for so long! );

No, it's ok! It's perfectly on topic.

This is where I absolutely do not agree. It is a problem because people let it be a problem.

I dunno, man. People don't choose to be offended. It's not a learned reaction or anything to do with politeness or manners. When I get offended by a sexist joke, it's because it's someone flaunting their privilege at me, pointing out my lack thereof, and it feels like I'm being belittled. It's an aggression.

Perhaps you could provide some examples of jokes that other people find offensive and you don't?

Also please read the thing I linked and tell me what you think.

[Twig]

Find any joke that offends you, and I promise I won't be offended by it. I know that's a ludicrous claim to make, but I can't even recall the last time a joke offended me! I have been made uncomfortable, but in such cases, I am positive that was the point of the joke! Sometimes comedy is intended to make you uncomfortable - that's part of the comedy. "Oh man, I really am a horrible person. I totally thought like that one time! Now let's all laugh at ourselves for being such miserable sacks of shit, ha ha ha."

I read the thing. I have always completely understood why people believe offensive humor to be a problem, but I have never agreed with it. I also don't agree that I should have to change myself - or others, themselves - because there are some seriously shitty people in the world.

I mean, for the record, I do give in. I never make jokes that I think people might find offensive, at least until I learn more about their tolerance. I can appreciate and respect that not everyone is as grossly tolerant of bullshit as I can be. It just bothers me a lot.

[MrHoatzin]

"Oh man, I really am a horrible person. I totally thought like that one time! Now let's all laugh at ourselves for being such miserable sacks of shit, ha ha ha."

We understand what you're saying. We're not talking about THAT side of the joke. THAT side of the joke may be the entirety of your personal experience, but we're talking about the OTHER side of the joke, the not incidental SUBJECTS of your horrible thoughts, the people you're horrible AT/ABOUT/TO.

Atiaboutito. ¬¬

[Twig]

I feel the same way regardless of the target of the mockery.

[Salacious Snake]

I feel the same way regardless of the target of the mockery.

That seems a bit misanthropic. I feel like I must be reading you wrong.

[Twig]

Quite the opposite! If it's a joke, I'm assuming people DON'T mean to offend. Certainly not universally true, but... eh. I'd rather assume the best in people until proven wrong than get upset at every little thing people say.

[Salacious Snake]

Quite the opposite! If it's a joke, I'm assuming people DON'T mean to offend. Certainly not universally true, but... eh. I'd rather assume the best in people until proven wrong than get upset at every little thing people say.

I see what you mean. Unfortunately, people constantly claim to be joking when what they are obviously doing is offhandedly making hurtful remarks which perpetuate toxic ideas. To use the "sandwich" example (which we all agree is at least dumb); there's barely enough going on there to call it a joke.

Comedians flirt with ugliness on a regular basis, but the good ones do it with a certain degree of craft. They knowingly subvert your prejudices. I don't advocate silencing creative expression that goes into dark places.

I do think people should care about how their words affect the people around them.

[Twig]

I mean I obviously agree that it's all about the intent of the words. If the intent is to hurt, that person is a shithead. If the intent is to poke fun... I am of the opinion that no one has the right to tell them to stop. I understand that people are still going to be hurt by these things, regardless, but... if something were to bother me? I'd either ignore it, or embrace it.

In junior high, people would call me "rat boy" ('cause I got some genetic issues with me toofs). It bothered me a lot at first. When I hit high school, I decided to just embrace it with the new kids, 'cause I knew the people who followed me from grade school would spread it around again. One of my new friends eventually dubbed me Splinter (after TMNT's ratman, hah). I share this anecdote in the hopes to further clarify the backbone of my philosophy. U:

[castorp]

Mh, not being bothered, or rather feeling hurt by any joke is part of the white-male privilege. Regardless of what happened to you personally, as a group white males are the dominant group in our society and even if they are the target of some jokes, it is, generally speaking, detached from real-world power-structures and problems. Other people have to deal with the joke-material in real life all the time – when they hear a group of privileged dudes laugh about the funny stuff they actually have to suffer through on a daily basis it becomes a manifestation of those cruel power-structures and the fucked-up distribution of privileges.

You managed to grow a thick skin, cool, and it sounds like you needed one, which sucks, but try to imagine how you would have handled the bullying, the skin-growing, if it wasn't some bullies, or even a lot of bullies, but the job you didn't get because 'Women get pregnant at that age', or the flat you didn't get because 'Black people are troublemakers and we are a peaceful community here', or the police who stopped you the third time this month because 'You are probably in the drug business', or being sexually harassed by a random stranger, or seeing some dude jerking of to you and your friends in the bushes at the age of twelve, or the whole media telling you, directly or indirectly, that you are weak/worthless/a criminal. (Some prime joke-material in here.)

[Roderick]

The thing that I've learned through this very discussion on this very forum, is that jokes are never just jokes. Jokes come from someplace, they exist in a context. Why would it be funny to jokingly belittle a woman or a minority, if it isn't founded on the knowledge that some people actually would say things like this earnestly? This alone makes joking about/with it practically always a bad thing, since it helps maintain the ideas and structures at the root of it.

We have got to stop perpetuating the inequality of women and minorities and that starts not by weeding out the actual racists and sexists, but by taking away the 'soft' parts of that in everyday people like you and me. People who are not racist or sexist, but do buy into and partake in the culture surrounding it. It is not an obvious force, these jokes - it is an insidious one because after all, it's just a joke, right? There is a lot more to it than simply being able to 'take' it or not on a personal level.

[EDIT: I removed a Youtube clip of Morgan Freeman speaking on racism because upon consideration I didn't entirely agree with it and it didn't fit the point I am making.]

[ThunderPeel2001]

Well said, Rodi! Ive heard what you're referring to sometimes called 'Casual Racism', or 'Casual Sexism'.

[Twig]

Mh, not being bothered, or rather feeling hurt by any joke is part of the white-male privilege. Regardless of what happened to you personally, as a group white males are the dominant group in our society and even if they are the target of some jokes, it is, generally speaking, detached from real-world power-structures and problems. Other people have to deal with the joke-material in real life all the time – when they hear a group of privileged dudes laugh about the funny stuff they actually have to suffer through on a daily basis it becomes a manifestation of those cruel power-structures and the fucked-up distribution of privileges.

You managed to grow a thick skin, cool, and it sounds like you needed one, which sucks, but try to imagine how you would have handled the bullying, the skin-growing, if it wasn't some bullies, or even a lot of bullies, but the job you didn't get because 'Women get pregnant at that age', or the flat you didn't get because 'Black people are troublemakers and we are a peaceful community here', or the police who stopped you the third time this month because 'You are probably in the drug business', or being sexually harassed by a random stranger, or seeing some dude jerking of to you and your friends in the bushes at the age of twelve, or the whole media telling you, directly or indirectly, that you are weak/worthless/a criminal. (Some prime joke-material in here.)

Yes, and that's all terrible, horrible shit, because of the intention behind it. The purpose of jokes is to call this stuff out for what it is: stupid. It does it in a way that makes people laugh. Not all people, but enough people, or the jokes wouldn't exist. Again, there's a difference between a comedian mocking women for being women and a dude actually thinking LESS of women for being women.

Anyway, this is what I'm talking about. I will always feel this way. For me, it's all about intent. Jokes are jokes. If the intent is to harm, BAD. If the intent is not to harm, FINE. The root is irrelevant. Only the intent matters. I believe this very strongly. It is core to my entire existence.

I've seen that Morgan Freeman clip before. As much as I respect the intent (heh), it stems from ignorance. As long as human beings exist as unique individuals, it is impossible to not judge each other on some level. Until we're all just grey blob clones of each other, we cannot possibly ignore our differences. It's how we react to these differences that marks us as good or bad people. Despite the vast majority of African-Americans I grew up with bullying me constantly, I hold literally no ill will toward them or any other member of that race. But I recognize that a great many of them belong to a significantly different subculture than my own. That's great. That's wonderful, in fact! That's what I love most about the human race. The diversity, and what stems from that diversity! It can result in some truly horrendous stuff, as we all know well from studying history, and even from current events... but I would never want that diversity to go away.

I mean, imagine a world without jazz. What a horrible world that would be!

[vimes]

.. I am of the opinion that no one has the right to tell them to stop.

I disagree completely with that: exercising my right to free speech doesn't mean that people don't get to criticize and even condemn what I say. They should be given the right to TELL me to stop. Whether or not they have the right to MAKE me stop is another matter. And my answer is, most of the times, no.

Jokes are jokes are jokes ... and as long as you giggle about whatever stuff in your own skull, you get to enjoy it in any matter you want. But like any other form of expression, jokes also convey the mental model and moral values of the teller; and as such, I think you have an obligation to listen to the feedback of your audience once you share them. They can laugh, boo or get outraged ... after that, you still get to decide if they are full of shit, but at least you'd had the balls to face the consequence of communicating those ideas.

We have got to stop perpetuating the inequality of women and minorities and that starts not by weeding out the actual racists and sexists, but by taking away the 'soft' parts of that in everyday people like you and me.

I sort of agreed with your point and then I realized that some of the greatest advances in civil and social rights would not have been achieved if people didn't get the courage to face extremists.

So, I can't blame you for supporting that view since my education also taught me to only try and convince people who are willing to listen; but realistically, it really sounds like a cope out and not really useful to the group targeted by inequalities.

Man, those discussion are way easier to conduct live than on a forum.

Edit: clean up and shorten sentences. Same point though

Edited June 21, 2012 by vimes

[Twig]

I disagree completely with that: having the right for speech and expression doesn't mean that people don't get to criticize and even condemn what I say. They should be given the right to TELL someone to stop. Whether or not they have the right to MAKE them stop is another matter. And my answer is, most of the times, no.

Well, that's actually what I meant. Except that I believe it's always the case that people shouldn't be allowed to MAKE them stop (provided the intent is, in fact, not to harm, but to joke).

Also, this is pretty much all I'll say on the topic, unless someone asks a specific question. I feel like I've explained my position fairly well. U:

[castorp]

Anyway, this is what I'm talking about. I will always feel this way. For me, it's all about intent. Jokes are jokes. If the intent is to harm, BAD. If the intent is not to harm, FINE. The root is irrelevant. Only the intent matters. I believe this very strongly. It is core to my entire existence.

I guess I strongly disagree with you here. Even if ones intent is just to be funny, it can hurt people and it can support discriminatory structures, and that matters. The

linked here before made the distinction quite nicely, I thought. Intent concerns who you are, but what you do is the important part for a society.

Could you elaborate further on why you think intent is the sole important thing to look at, and effect doesn't matter to you? (Honest question, I have problems following you there.)

While yes, humour can draw light to issues in society, criticise, subvert, it is often just there to make a certain audience laugh, without regard for inherent problems or people outside that audience.

We had comedian here, not funny, not offensive, but sexist in a lame and boring way. 'Women are this, haha', 'men are that, isn't it silly' – god it was dumb, but people ate that shit up, TV, concert halls, quite a sad sight. I'd never argue for him to be not allowed on stage, but people should have booed him off of it the first time he started his damn routine.

I have the feeling that your 'black people and their jazz' remark merits another discussion, but maybe I'm over sensitive now and that's just how I read it.