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Roderick

Feminism

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I do agree with you. All I can say is: Sexiness does not equal sexism. It feels like you're complaining because she's designed to look sexy?

I'm complaining about how few female characters in video games are not designed specifically to look sexy despite how illogical their designs are for what the character is supposed to do.

Would you rather we complain about all other video games ever with horrifically few exceptions, or shall we stay on current events?

and JoannaDark, I am a woman

This thread is bullshit and needs to die.

Ok, why?

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The reaction is understandable because it's the same thing over and over and over in video games: oversexualized female characters whose main design feature is HELLO I AM FEMALE LOOK BOOBS AND PRETTY FACE.

I totally agree and understand, and have made the same point myself in the past. I suppose if you love this particular franchise and you feel let down by it making an overtly sexy character, then I understand. I guess I just don't care strongly about Mass Effect enough to think that this is a particularly bad example.

Fun fact for the day: Bridesmaids fails the reverse Bechdel test. If you want to know how it feels to be a woman watching a typical movie, there you go!

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I totally agree and understand, and have made the same point myself in the past. I suppose if you love this particular franchise and you feel let down by it making an overtly sexy character, then I understand. I guess I just don't care strongly about Mass Effect enough to think that this is a particularly bad example.

It's not even a particularly bad example and I don't even care about ME, and I didn't even introduce the subject, Gwardinen did :C

I just posted because the thread was going horrible places! And I wanted to clarify the reasonable side of why people are complaining about this character design. The more potential something has, the more disappointing it is when it doesn't live up to it. See: Spore, Fable

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Can I introduce another sort of subthread thing here. Is Kill Bill feminist?

I think it is, and I really enjoy it. I find female protagonists a lot more interesting, as the whole hero's journey sequence for male protagonists seems to me to be very juvenile at the age I'm at now.

Female protagonists seem to resonate with more complex themes for me, and have made me think about elements of my personality, things I've said while drunk, stuff like that, that I now regret and can learn from.

These kinds of things are at last starting to happen less often, which I'm relieved about.

Is this just me?

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Would you rather we complain about all other video games ever with horrifically few exceptions, or shall we stay on current events?

OK, fair enough. Like I said, I don't particularly care about Mass Effect or expect it to have high standards (there was a thread about Mass Effect a while back when they introduced that new "skin head" woman character -- and everyone hated her because of all the things you were saying: She was designed to be exciting to young males).

Also female characters in Mass Effect have always had shapely armour.

Although I agree that it's absurd, I just wonder if we'd ever do anything else if we complained every time a female character was introduced with silly things like this. (I'd like to hope that at least FemShep has a good, believable, three dimensional character... which is rare enough in itself.)

Maybe you're right, though. Maybe every transgression does deserve to be pointed out and vilified until they eventually end.

Edited by ThunderPeel2001

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Ok, why?

You are arguing a point that has been argued roughly infinity times over the course of human history. There is no answer, as long as you consider all people equal then you are doing it right. Can a strong female character not be attractive, can she not wear clothes which she chooses to wear in the fiction. Male characters tend to be targeted the exact same way, the male Shepard, as Thunder has pointed out is quite similar to the very attractive men Matthew Fox and additionally Wentworth Miller. While his female counterpart looks to be a woman in her early twenties.

This goes round in circles and always will. If I were to argue this point I would focus on race as a problem above gender, look at the reaction to the new Ultimate Spider-Man being black. How many games have believable characters of ethnic minorities?

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You are arguing a point that has been argued roughly infinity times over the course of human history. There is no answer, as long as you consider all people equal then you are doing it right. Can a strong female character not be attractive, can she not wear clothes which she chooses to wear in the fiction. Male characters tend to be targeted the exact same way, the male Shepard, as Thunder has pointed out is quite similar to the very attractive men Matthew Fox and additionally Wentworth Miller. While his female counterpart looks to be a woman in her early twenties.

This goes round in circles and always will. If I were to argue this point I would focus on race as a problem above gender, look at the reaction to the new Ultimate Spider-Man being black. How many games have believable characters of ethnic minorities?

Why do you say there is no answer and then immediately state the answer?

If no one ever had these arguments, and they did in fact always go in circles, then women would not be able to vote, rape would always be considered the woman's fault if she was wearing a miniskirt, homosexuality would still be considered a mental illness, and Custer's Revenge would be a heartwarming Video game about forbidden love. Progress does happen with adult discussion, which is what we're having here as opposed to shouty internet arguing.

I already pointed out why I even touched the discussion about a Video game I don't really care about at all and that's done with so I won't talk about it anymore.

Race is handled very problematically, absolutely. That doesn't mean that we should only talk about one as opposed to the other. As a racial minority myself (yep I'm female AND brown) I think they are equally important and should both be discussed. Why do you think it would be more productive to talk about race and not gender?

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You are arguing a point that has been argued roughly infinity times over the course of human history. There is no answer, as long as you consider all people equal then you are doing it right. Can a strong female character not be attractive, can she not wear clothes which she chooses to wear in the fiction.

To be fair, boob armour is completely silly.

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tumblr_lpcbl90VKM1qjm6tmo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1312634259&Signature=wUTcAGaz%2FhEL%2BfPZtZZPmZt1XEs%3D

via

The accompanying text really helps explain this image better:

"The point of contention still is, as it always was, that people are getting tired of seeing all of the female leads drawn with body language and uniforms that make them appear less heroic, powerful, legitimate, and all-around able to be taken seriously than their male counterparts."

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Why do you say there is no answer and then immediately state the answer?

If no one ever had these arguments, and they did in fact always go in circles, then women would not be able to vote, rape would always be considered the woman's fault if she was wearing a miniskirt, homosexuality would still be considered a mental illness, and Custer's Revenge would be a heartwarming Video game about forbidden love. Progress does happen with adult discussion, which is what we're having here as opposed to shouty internet arguing.

I already pointed out why I even touched the discussion about a Video game I don't really care about at all and that's done with so I won't talk about it anymore.

Race is handled very problematically, absolutely. That doesn't mean that we should only talk about one as opposed to the other. As a racial minority myself (yep I'm female AND brown) I think they are equally important and should both be discussed. Why do you think it would be more productive to talk about race and not gender?

I'd argue that saying you are a feminist is anti equal rights, in the same way people say they are proud that they have a gay friend, to which I would counter, who the fuck cares what type of person they are attracted to.

Race hasn't been touched on nearly as much as gender, how many games have a black, hispanic or arabic protagonist. GTA is the only one which comes to mind, which while most protagonsts are white males, there are a lot of strong female characters: BG&E, Mirrors Edge, Longest Journey.

While women are often portrayed with ridiculous proportions etc, there is a reason for this, there are a lot of male adolecent gamers. Anyone who has grown up will realise that these characters are characatures, with zero substance, and the real characters which have appeal are those in the earlier mentioned games, along with HL2, etc. To agree with this we would have to add Lara Crigger and her #naughtyHawkthoughts.

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The accompanying text really helps explain this image better:

"The point of contention still is, as it always was, that people are getting tired of seeing all of the female leads drawn with body language and uniforms that make them appear less heroic, powerful, legitimate, and all-around able to be taken seriously than their male counterparts."

A bit of context on that is DC removing Wonder Woman's trousers, shown in the subsequently posted but out of date image. DC are finding that whatever they do with that costume now, fans bitch endlessly. They've got themselves into a right sticky corner, just like this thread.

I find the "But male characters are represented superficially too!" argument trite. They're a power fantasy for men more than a fuck fantasy for heterosexual women. Whereas, female characters tend to be fuck fantasies for heterosexual men.

Regardless, in talking about comic and game characters from Mass Effect and DC, we're really debating things from the bottom end of the scale. I hereby dub the camp Batman in that image: FemBat.

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I'd argue that saying you are a feminist is anti equal rights,

I'd argue that you haven't read the thread, at least the parts where we demistify exactly this.

Race hasn't been touched on nearly as much as gender, how many games have a black, hispanic or arabic protagonist. GTA is the only one which comes to mind, which while most protagonsts are white males, there are a lot of strong female characters: BG&E, Mirrors Edge, Longest Journey.

While women are often portrayed with ridiculous proportions etc, there is a reason for this, there are a lot of male adolecent gamers. Anyone who has grown up will realise that these characters are characatures, with zero substance, and the real characters which have appeal are those in the earlier mentioned games, along with HL2, etc. To agree with this we would have to add Lara Crigger and her #naughtyHawkthoughts.

Oh my god, I am at work and I cannot write all the words I want to write about this. In a nutshell: just 'cause your audience is stupid doesn't mean you have to continue to make stupid games, try making non-stupid games and oh look a bigger audience all of a sudden! asdfjk

And yes race is handled awfully but this is a feminism thread, wanna go start a race thread? I'd totally back you up on that

I hereby dub the camp Batman in that image: FemBat.

I love how he's the only hairy one.

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I think the Mass Effect discussion has run its course now, but I want to clarify that I didn't post about it because I think ME is a particularly egregious example of sexism. On the contrary, as I said I think BioWare is surprisingly forward-thinking in a number of ways given its position (though there have been some backward steps). I posted about it because I found the situation with the poll and the reaction to it genuinely confusing and discomforting. As I said in my post, it got to the point at which I couldn't even really tell who was being sexist anymore, because everyone seemed to be vilifying both the objectification of women and the women themselves!

I love how he's the only hairy one.

I only noticed that once you pointed it out, but it is funny. I'd argue this is because Batman is one of the few pure mortals in a superhero role. While Superman is probably so obsessed with maintaining his image that he heat visions his own hair off every morning in 0.1 nanoseconds, Batman is busy building shit to try to keep himself alive while fighting a similar calibre of villain.

Returning to the point somewhat, there have actually been some serious PR issues for DC recently regarding sexism. There was a woman dressed as Batgirl at San Diego Comic-Con who asked some very pointed questions about women in DC, both in terms of characters and staff, and DC has been scrambling to respond. I don't have any great links to share myself right now, but a little internet research from someone with a little more time might shed some light on it.

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Also, Batman has the only shiny crotch. I think DC needs a Tom of Finland makeover.

Use caution googling that name may be nsfw.

Edited by Kingzjester
Err, not Marvel, DC.

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Why do you say there is no answer and then immediately state the answer?

If no one ever had these arguments, and they did in fact always go in circles, then women would not be able to vote, rape would always be considered the woman's fault if she was wearing a miniskirt, homosexuality would still be considered a mental illness, and Custer's Revenge would be a heartwarming Video game about forbidden love. Progress does happen with adult discussion, which is what we're having here as opposed to shouty internet arguing.

I'd point out that to get the vote and so forth, they didn't discuss it, they went out and did something about it. Talking does fuck all, look at Gandhi, Rosa Parks, Anne Braden, Thich Quang Duc, etc. An image would need to be given to these causes, one which will stick with those who see it. It's why online petitions tend to fall on deaf ears. It's preaching to the choir, not those who can actually have an influence.

Oh my god, I am at work and I cannot write all the words I want to write about this. In a nutshell: just 'cause your audience is stupid doesn't mean you have to continue to make stupid games, try making non-stupid games and oh look a bigger audience all of a sudden! asdfjk

And yes race is handled awfully but this is a feminism thread, wanna go start a race thread? I'd totally back you up on that

Actually, it does, take CoD for example, which has become pretty stupid, but it sells incredible amounts of copies. If a new CoD didn't come out this year, these people would be pissed off. Should the game they love not be made instead of something more mature? No, of course not. So take Street fighter as an example, the games themselves are incredibly solid, but I doubt it would have taken off, as much as it did, without either Chun-Li or Cammy. The same with Buffy, if the main character was a plain looking girl not many people would have watched it, but the best parts are where the characters are dealing with real world issues. Having an additional selling point is a good thing.

If you want to improve females in games, organise something, get a group of people to email or write a letter to the designer of a game that represented women in a bad light, suggest how they could improve, etc. Talking on an independent games forum is not going to do anything, advertising your cause on one, however, might.

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Abandon ship! Rats and cheese first!

(What the hell happened in here whilst I slept?)

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Patters, your argument is bullshit and needs to die.

Or you could at least be less aggressive and preachy about it.

Edited by ThunderPeel2001

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I think the Mass Effect discussion has run its course now, but I want to clarify that I didn't post about it because I think ME is a particularly egregious example of sexism. On the contrary, as I said I think BioWare is surprisingly forward-thinking in a number of ways given its position (though there have been some backward steps). I posted about it because I found the situation with the poll and the reaction to it genuinely confusing and discomforting. As I said in my post, it got to the point at which I couldn't even really tell who was being sexist anymore, because everyone seemed to be vilifying both the objectification of women and the women themselves!

It is quite confusing. I do think BioWare is quite forward thinking, but this does seem like a step backwards for them. For me this character walks a fine line, I guess. It's interesting reading people's reactions to it, though.

If enough people want a more realistic and grounded female characters, then that's undoubtedly what we'll get... eventually.

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I'd argue that saying you are a feminist is anti equal rights

wat.jpg

I... I just... what

:frusty:

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wat.jpg

I... I just... what

:frusty:

After the comma, suggesting that you are proud of supporting a single sex, a lot of shit has come out of it. I personally cannot support stuff like insurance agencies that only support a single gender:

diamond.jpg

Offering a service exclusively for a gender is a step in the wrong direction. I don't like the term, especially in modern terms. There are ways which mens rights should be improved:

We do not receive sentencing equality.

We do not have reproductive rights equality.

We do not receive equality in the family courts.

We do not receive justice equality when it comes to men who allege rape, or men who are murdered by their wives.

We do not receive institutional participation to better our performance in education when we're lagging the way boys are right now.

Take my University's union: http://www.umsu.manchester.ac.uk/your_union/council/council_2010-11

Notice:

Women's Officer EMMA KERRY

Disabled Students' Secretary (Open) LARA KAPLAN

Disabled Students' Secretary (Women-Only) WAJIHA SHEIKH

LGBT Secretary (Open) OLI KASIN

LGBT Secretary (Women-Only) FIONNUALA MCGOLDRICK

There is no men's officer, there is no men's officer for LBGT or Disabled students. Yet there are issues which they could handle, find a lump in your testicles and have to get one cut out, get a girl pregnant and she gets an abortion, or doesn't, or anything else.

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Wow. When I put the "men's rights activism" tag on this thread, I thought it was going to be merely ironic. Patters, you're embarrassingly full of shit.

:tdown::fart::eathat::campbell::dopefish:

All of those are the patriarchy's fault in one way or another.

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They're a power fantasy for men more than a fuck fantasy for heterosexual women. Whereas, female characters tend to be fuck fantasies for heterosexual men.

This is excellently said and needs to be quoted. :clap:

Returning to the point somewhat, there have actually been some serious PR issues for DC recently regarding sexism. There was a woman dressed as Batgirl at San Diego Comic-Con who asked some very pointed questions about women in DC, both in terms of characters and staff, and DC has been scrambling to respond. I don't have any great links to share myself right now, but a little internet research from someone with a little more time might shed some light on it.

Here is an interview with the lady in question:

http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/8130151171/bgsdccinterview

And here is an amazing audio clip of Didio:

http://tpbcorner.com/kyrax2/HireWomen.mp3

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I'm probably stupid, but I feel the more pertinent legacy of the poll should be that the Facebook voters, most of whom probably possessed mainstream sentiments about the place of women, appeared to take no issue with the idea of Shepard being female.

Not to seem conceited, but could anyone could tell me what they think of that? No contempt or hostility, please.

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