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Roderick

Feminism

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Oh shit! Welcome, wife of Kingz! I had no idea.

Welp the cat's out of the bag. GIRL ON THE INTERNET

thanks miffy. :) And I do appreciate your input a lot. I feel awfully pessimistic when discussions about feminism are split along gender lines, so I'm very happy this is not the case here.

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Are you sure?

Are you white, male, and in a first world country?

I get the feeling you use a different meaning for "society". But yeah sure, then I'm privileged. You can also add to the list that I'm intelligent (I have paper to prove that, really), non-religious, have all my limbs, no glasses, or any other serious body defects. But then again, I suck at being pretty, natural languages, drawing, playing the piano, dancing, etc.

So I think I sort of come out quite neutral.

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Just FYI about why, despite being the other half of that combustion reaction on the funny pictures thread, I lapsed into silence.

In my late teens and early 20s I got really into queer politics, feminist politics, and women's studies. That knowledge, and the sixth-sense for when something is going on (like when one minority person is treated as a "spokesperson" for an entire minority group - "hey, Black person, you know everything about being Black, tell me why this guy in this news article did this," or when the pendejo game is being played), doesn't really go away. I've spent hours embroiled in feminism discussions and fights on (first) LJ and (later) MeFi and sometimes it's just not worth the GRAR. Hence my snappish/snarkish replies to anti-feminist comments that are bound to start something (and general avoidance of the sort of thread that's bound to get GRAR-y).

Sometimes it's tiring, y'know? You just want to sit back, watch Star Trek: TNG or read LOEG without thinking about privilege, the patriarchy, or umpteen -isms that can and will crop up. You want to look at girls cosplaying as Link and ignore the creepy hurf-durf-I'd-hookshot-that-IKWIM(AITYD) comments on Reddit/Imgur that make your skin crawl and make you feel like a hypocrite for looking at the images, rather than getting upset or irritated or taking a stand about pointing out that they're, y'know, creepy and make you feel a little bit ill if you really think about them. You want the privilege of being able to not think about privilege.

(I myself am hugely privileged. My problems are, by and large, First World problems. I forget this often, and have to check myself.)

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I get the feeling you use a different meaning for "society". But yeah sure, then I'm privileged. You can also add to the list that I'm intelligent (I have paper to prove that, really), non-religious, have all my limbs, no glasses, or any other serious body defects. But then again, I suck at being pretty, natural languages, drawing, playing the piano, dancing, etc.

So I think I sort of come out quite neutral.

You know, after this, and the thing about Custer's Revenge, I have decided I really cannot tell if you're serious or not.

Just FYI about why, despite being the other half of that combustion reaction on the funny pictures thread, I lapsed into silence.

Thank you for sharing this (especially the bit about the pendejo game – that is new to me!). I know what you mean and while it would be cool to have more female voices in this thread I totally understand the desire to avoid getting angry at things.

-or-

I LOVE UR POST SO MUCH I WANT TO MAKE SEX TO YOU HURR

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Thank you for sharing this (especially the bit about the pendejo game – that is new to me!). I know what you mean and while it would be cool to have more female voices in this thread I totally understand the desire to avoid getting angry at things.

-or-

I LOVE UR POST SO MUCH I WANT TO MAKE SEX TO YOU HURR

hotttt :eyebrow:

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Appreciated.

Hurtardo's piece is really good, and I wish there were a more-accessible version of it available online because I keep referring to it any time someone plays the "teach me about sexism from first principles" game. I also like Unpacking the Invisible Backpack, which has been riffed off many more times in the blogosphere and is more recognisable.

(I also have to limit my typing due to RSI, but I wanted to be honest and admit that the larger reason was that I've developed a low threshold (and had already met it last week due to a MeFi discussion) - I've become burned out on feminism discussions the same way most people burn out on discussions that quickly develop a bunch of their own bingo cards because it's the same thing over and over and over again.)

-or-

LOL WIMMIN CAN'T TAKE IT AMIRITE

EDIT: Shaaaaaaammack.

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Custer's Revenge -- the quintessential tale of two star-cross'd lovers, ripped apart by an unjust society. A confederate general and an indian woman, ripped apart by Custer's RAGING BONER.

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I LOVE UR POST SO MUCH I WANT TO MAKE SEX TO YOU HURR

I think it shows what kind of person I am (ambivalent, mostly) when the grammar in "make sex to you" bothers me more than the sexism.

:getmecoat

Custer's Revenge -- the quintessential tale of two star-cross'd lovers, ripped apart by an unjust society. A confederate general and an indian woman, ripped apart by Custer's RAGING BONER.

. . .What. . .you. . .freaking. . .whatthechrist, Rodi. . .

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Hahaha. Makes sense, subbes. I know that I have a similar determinism-fatigue at this point when it comes to discussing my thesis with others, so I totally understand. As long as we're explaining where we're coming from: I have the benefit of being about to celebrate my fourth anniversary (Wednesday! Yay!) with a girlfriend who has spent the last two years as a women's studies major (and lets me read her books), as well as having taken philosophy courses beforehand that greatly illuminated women's/minority issues for me, starting with an introduction to eco-feminism in an environmental ethics class and getting interested from there. Before having professors introduce me to the subjects I was also in the "ugh, feminism" camp, being massively ill-informed about the breadth of thought and perspectives on the matter.

I will caution you about being too wary of the pendejo game though, as early on I was asking those questions about language as well (there are still barriers to me understanding the issues as well as I would like, and thankfully my girlfriend is helpful in explaining) from a legitimate stance of wanting to be able to translate for myself. Sometimes the people that want you to define your terms really do want to know, and aren't just dicking you around. I was one.

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I try to only assume the pendejo game if they're being dickholes. :)

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That's the Kevin ***** movie, right? I remember wanting to see it, but never did get around to it.

I thought it was pretty good, if fairly bleak. It's not quite what you were talking about – the character is a convicted child molester, so he has acted on his desires – but he's portrayed as a man who knows his impulses are harmful, and is struggling with them. I found it a much more realistic depiction than the idea of the inhuman monster after our kids, but all the more depressing for it. Can a facet of an otherwise unobjectionable person's nature push them so hard to do something so unspeakable?

Well, what other words ending with -philia refers to raping and molestating the stem? As far as I can tell (and I feel sort of backed up by a quick Wikipedia perusal) the definition of the term really does fit with all the others, and – understandably, to be sure – the horrors of child molestation are tightly linked to it, but I think it's a shame that those who suffer from it (and what a terrible fate it must be!) gets the rapist rep compounded onto them automatically, even though there are bound to be otherwise healthy people that have "successfully" struggled with it, and the associated shame, their entire lives; not being able to talk about it with anyone, even to seek help or treatment. And of course, there is no proper help or treatment.

If your complaint is that there's no linguistic distinction between sexual attraction to children and a criminal who acts on such desires, then I concede that it may be preferable to make a "paedophile"/"child molester" distinction. I was just saying that I don't see much of a linguistic reason that the word "paedophilia" couldn't refer to the latter (other than that confusing the terminology, I guess). In conclusion: you're probably right.

Anyway, this should probably go in a thread called Pedophilia (certainly bound to be a popular one!) since it has no bearing on the matter of feminism.

You're probably right.

Sorry for cluttering the thread, everyone!

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Yeah, I think I'm done talking about paedophiles. Particularly given that I'm about to start my practicum to be an elementary school teacher, an internet search that can link my email address to a thread called "Paedophilia" is probably a really bad thing to have, no matter the actual context.

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I'm all for a society in which both (all, even) genders are given the same opportunities, the same recognition and reward for the same effort, while at the same time recognizing the actual physical differences between the genders. I'm pretty sure this is the way most of us feel (though I've been known to be spectacularly wrong about things!) My little, unimportant issue with feminism is with the word itself, and is similar to my problem with the word pedophile (wait, let me explain!) and it simply has to do with what I feel the word actually should mean, and what it actually means. To start with the latter term, it always irks me when people get all riled up over pedophiles, when I feel they should be riled up over child molesters. Philia means love, not rape. Similarly – although not very – the word feminism to me suggests something more than the the sentiments I described initially – to me it sounds like it's aiming for something too far in the other direction. As I said, these are some minor, unimportant issues I have with the term itself. I think measures that "force" the norm (affirmative action, I believe it's called?) are justifiable, but only to balance the scales faster, so to speak.

I'm going to post this, even though I think it's a bit lame, looking back.

I'm glad you didn't start that with "I'm not a paedophile" because that's always a dead giveaway, obv.

Agreed with you though. I used to be quite against affirmative action, because I have seen it go weirdly wrong in a local college where lots of 18 years olds were behaving really badly, and it effectively created bureaucratic invincibility for some, but I realise that's not the norm. The more I live, the more I realise how privileged I am as a white dude and how easily I could ignore that and transmute it into a sense of entitlement (and probably still do, to an extent). Going to and organising a bunch of games and tech events has really underlined to me the dominance of white guys too.

Also, yes, your English is always very good toblix. I know Norwegian and English are very close in grammar and many words are effectively synonyms, but you have a good vocabulary and an easy to read style of writing :tup:

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Missed that. I too am pro-affirmative action, pretty much for the reasons 'blix and Nach mention. It's easy to pick flaws in the execution of these measures, but it's way easier out there for a white guy, and I'm all for balancing the scales.

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Hope no one here ever runs for office!

How so? Nothing happened/was said here that even comes close to what some of those politicians did while in office.

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I believe the idea was that we have now all posted in a thread which expresses sympathy towards (NON-PRACTICING!!!!) paedophiles.

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Custer%27sRevenge2.gif

If ever I saw one...!

But to jump back into the thread: peadophiles =/= rapists, though it is a terrible affliction that I have no easy answer for how to at upon (or not act upon). I can easily understand if people have the view that they are 'ticking time bombs', because there are few emotions so strong and irrational as suppressed love/desire.

Affirmitive action I am against in principle, but for in practice. It makes me sad and sometimes frustrated that it's there, just for the fact that we apparently need it. Not just for women, but also minorities. I hate its necessity.

I startled when reading about the pendejo game. I never even considered that such a thing might be used as a horrible trap. As a curious person I am constantly asking people to explain their views, but the thought never entered my mind to lead them in circles. Now that I know this exists, I suddenly see patterns in some people around me who do seem to use this tactic to win discussions by hyperfocusing on terminology and the smallest of details to create a stalemate or pull the rug from under the greater point. It should come as no surprise I hate those discussions passionately. But how to arm oneself against it?

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The only way to win the pendejo game... is not to play. :shifty:

Give them a bibliography? They will decline to read anything from it, which proves false their claim to a desire to learn. Not that it's likely to help really.

On the wider discussion (which I mostly missed because I was away from the computer for a couple of days, and also because I don't really have much of value to contribute) - I grew up with fairly feminist values and would still consider myself a feminist in many respects. It did however give me something of a male guilt complex once I reached adolescence and it took me a long time to actually accept that a lot of things about male sexuality are not inherently bad. It's only a blessing* I wasn't raised catholic as well.

For this reason and others I am, as well as being sympathetic to feminist issues, also interested in societal misandry and modern male identity crisis. Granted this is much less serious and considerably more subtle than female discrimination to the point where a lot of people doubt it even exists. In a way though I see them as part of the same problem - most male chauvinists are that way because that is the role their culture has steered them into and it may even punish them for deviating from it. This does not excuse them; it merely suggests a method to tackle it.

In a similar fashion much abuse and indoctrination of women is carried out by other women, especially in less egalitarian cultures. This is why I have no real truck with a 'war of the sexes' - it divides the line in entirely the wrong places.

I am utterly unqualified to state any of this.

*ironic use of the word "blessing"? - I have no idea, i just noticed it myself.

Edited by DanJW

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I am utterly unqualified to state any of this.

The beauty of a community of intelligent people allows this, speak on.

On the "Pendejo Game", whatthechrist. I mean, I've argued (I refuse to call it debate with these people) with folks who absolutely refuse to hear reason, regardless of how salient a point is, but that's just. . .argh, humanity.

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I agree entirely that such people exist, but I propose that a significant portion of them are also the kind of people who object to having an opinion outright because they object to some outlier examples of PC thought (renaming Christmas, for example). I don't think the word is the main thing riling them; I think it's the ridiculous stories they hear about how it's no longer permissible to make eye contact with women, or whatever.

I agree, but just as aside: Nobody renamed Christmas...

hUOGrtj2iRU

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Disclaimer: I haven't actually read this entire thread, I just wanted to add my own experiences with the word "feminism". Toblix is right to say that taken literally it seems to want to lead to a female domination of society... but as JamesM pointed out: Words in the English language often don't mean what they're supposed to mean. The word feminism refers explicitly to the equalisation of rights for men and women. Whatever its literal linguistic meaning, that's what it actually means, so I'm cool with it.

Of course, I meet people who don't agree. A friend of mine insisted that they're not a feminist, that they hate feminism, and that they were actually an "equalist". There's just so many things wrong with the logic surrounding that argument that I don't know where to begin. (How about: You've invented a word to describe your movement that's literally meaningless, instead of using the existing word that already means what you want it to mean... So in order to help "clarify" your position, you've actually just made it harder for people to understand what you mean. Somewhat ironic. *sigh*)

Words are constantly having their literal meanings corrupted (consider the word "literally" -- a most frustrating corruption).

6ly1UTgiBXM

The most frustrating thing is when I meet women who say (defensively), "Oh, I'm not a feminist or anything!". To which I always say, "Why not?! I am!". It's sad that feminism has been associated with some sort of angry undesirable mob or something. I don't understand why anyone (let alone a woman) would ever say they weren't a feminist. It's sad.

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