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Thompson

Piracy/theft

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Well, piracy isn't theft, it is in the definition of both terms.

In theft I take something away from you, you can no longer use that something. In piracy I simply make a copy and sell it to others as the real deal. (Note: piracy without selling is just copyright infringement). Parties like the MAFIAA like to use the word 'theft' because they think it's easier to understand for the dumb people.

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So this guy is just taking illegal copies of frigates and schooners?

248700_1805.jpg

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Yeah, that's pretty self-evident. Regardless of how wrong piracy is, or how best to fight it (or if fighting it is even a good idea), it is by definition not theft. I don't think it helps the debate at all when people equate the two. It's unnecessarily hyperbolic.

I'd rather see an industry try to reduce piracy by humanising the creators and fostering a culture of supporting the artist, rather than trying to scare people and ultimately trivialising the issue with obviously false analogies ("you wouldn't steal a car...').

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The most disturbing part of what Notch said is that he suggests to "make games last more than a week" and "you can't pirate an online account".

People have been pirating PAYED online accounts for ages, even some free ones get hacked!

And do we need more 60+ hour games in this saturated market? Also, people pirate games because they want them, not because they are too short. What on Earth has Notch been playing for his to imply that games need to be longer?

I'd kill to have 6 hour games instead of 60! :(

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The most disturbing part of what Notch said is that he suggests to "make games last more than a week" and "you can't pirate an online account".

People have been pirating PAYED online accounts for ages, even some free ones get hacked!

And do we need more 60+ hour games in this saturated market? Also, people pirate games because they want them, not because they are too short. What on Earth has Notch been playing for his to imply that games need to be longer?

I'd kill to have 6 hour games instead of 60! :(

that's either stealing or hijacking.

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Dragging theft into this unnecessarily muddles the discussion.

What we're dealing with here is a new form of what might be criminal behaviour. It's more than just 'copyright infringement' when you pirate a game or CD, but what is it exactly? The discussion we're having right now is to determine what this actually is and how we will fit this piracy thing into our moral framework. Where does it stand legally? Morally? It's important, it's a little paradigm shift and it's not benefiting from being forced into the 'theft' bracket just because that's convenient. We'll need to do better than that.

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Very interesting summation Rodi. The people using the term theft are pretty much preaching to the naive and the converted, but I don't think they will ever make headway against culture.

I haven't heard this before:

“Is a bad review a lost sale? What about a missed ship date?”

:tup:

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that's either stealing or hijacking.

If you're talking about me "hijacking" the thread, I don't see it that way, I'm talking about something Notch said in that interview and frankly, we have a piracy thread every once in a while and end up saying the same thing, we don't think it's theft, but we don't think it's a good thing.

Although I admit Rodi's point is new.

My own view is that people should view every pirated games as a vote for "I don't care if this company closes down or if this game gets a sequel", while there are many people who pirate because they can't afford it, or can't acquire legally for some other reason, most pirates are part of the uber entitled internet mindset that think that they deserve "everything ever forever for free".

Are you a starving artist and need photoshop to live? By all means, get a copy "anyway you can". Are you spoiled brat teenager who has never worked a day in your live and wants every animu ever for free and is wondering why some many anime publisher in the US are closing because you're such a "good fan"... die in a fire.

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If you're talking about me "hijacking" the thread, I don't see it that way, I'm talking about something Notch said in that interview and frankly, we have a piracy thread every once in a while and end up saying the same thing, we don't think it's theft, but we don't think it's a good thing.

Although I admit Rodi's point is new.

My own view is that people should view every pirated games as a vote for "I don't care if this company closes down or if this game gets a sequel", while there are many people who pirate because they can't afford it, or can't acquire legally for some other reason, most pirates are part of the uber entitled internet mindset that think that they deserve "everything ever forever for free".

Are you a starving artist and need photoshop to live? By all means, get a copy "anyway you can". Are you spoiled brat teenager who has never worked a day in your live and wants every animu ever for free and is wondering why some many anime publisher in the US are closing because you're such a "good fan"... die in a fire.

No, as in account hijacking, see WoW or Steam accounts, usually done by phishing, which is a definite problem. I'm really bored of this 'debate', yeah it happens, but it happens everywhere, and always has and always will.

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What we're dealing with here is a new form of what might be criminal behaviour. It's more than just 'copyright infringement' when you pirate a game or CD, but what is it exactly? The discussion we're having right now is to determine what this actually is and how we will fit this piracy thing into our moral framework. Where does it stand legally? Morally? It's important, it's a little paradigm shift and it's not benefiting from being forced into the 'theft' bracket just because that's convenient. We'll need to do better than that.

Hold on there.

Copyright infringement is an illegal act, but not a criminal act.

Piracy (both in goods and on high see) are criminal acts.

You cannot stop copyright infringement or piracy. Making it more complicated to do so will only hamper your customers. Annoy your customers enough and they might resort to copyright infringement, getting pirated version, or simply downloading illegitimate copies (which isn't piracy or copyright infringement when you do not distribute any bits yourself).

Morally? The whole concept of morals is in the eye of the beholder. It is considered morally wrong you get illegitimate copies, but by a lot it is also considered morally wrong to artificially limit usage/ownership of products. If Sony was Ford and the PS3 was a car. The car you bought cannot be opened by you for repair, only gas approved by Sony could be bought. You couldn't make arbitrary modifications to your car. And Sony could ban you from driving your car on the road.

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I'm not schooled enough in law to know the difference between an illegal act and a criminal act. Is it in the intent? If I made a mistake, I hope you read through it and arrive at the actual message as it was intended to be.

What you say are all good considerations, and exactly these considerations will help us arrive at a point where we can define where we stand on piracy as a society (hypothetically of course. Practically there will never be a consensus, but it's definitely possible with a strong view and an appealling message to shift our culture towards taking some stance on the topic).

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I'm not schooled enough in law to know the difference between an illegal act and a criminal act. Is it in the intent?

I think it just depends on which law you are breaking and whether that specific law defines that act as criminal or not. I may be wrong.

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I'm not schooled enough in law to know the difference between an illegal act and a criminal act. Is it in the intent? If I made a mistake, I hope you read through it and arrive at the actual message as it was intended to be.

Criminal acts are defined in the Criminal law (Wetboek van Strafrecht in the Netherlands). A misdemeanor is a lesser form of criminal act.

Illegal acts are defined in the other laws.

Although it is not always divided that strictly. Traffic, gun and drug laws are often extension of the criminal law, and not per se part of it.

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I have to sort of follow Patters here, while I'm all for good debate about important issues, this one has been talked to death with no way to make any real progress. It's fairly obvious to most people that if you can afford it and are physically capable of doing so, you should buy a game if you wish to support that franchise and/or developer and/or publisher and/or the games industry in general. Additionally it is safer from a legal standpoint.

There will always be people who don't care about supporting said organisations, or who just put the value of their own money far above that of the support they'd be providing (not an entirely unreasonable position, though ultimately somewhat short-sighted in some cases) and yes, even those internet dwellers who just think they should get everything for free for some reason. Piracy and copyright infringement are not going to stop, they have existed for as long as intellectual property has existed and I don't see anything ending that run any time soon.

The only thing that I think is strange and worth mentioning about the whole affair is that those on the "side" of piracy often seem to take a stance that what they are doing is not only justified but somehow noble. In almost all cases that seems to be the triumph or ignorance, self-delusion or a combination thereof. Other than my desire to see the games industry as strong as possible, I don't particularly care about piracy, but if you're going to infringe copyright at least be honest with yourself about what you're doing and why. I don't think I've ever seen someone with a genuinely "noble" reason for it.

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To me, the main problem with piracy is that it allows people to acquire a game for free when they can and would otherwise pay for it. Although these individuals aren't technically stealing, they are still depriving developers of money they would have definitely received if the pirate had just gone down to Best Buy and bought the game.

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Hahahaa, now that it's mentioned, a big part of being a pirate is theft, but game piracy isn't exactly theft by definition as you guys say. Maybe piracy has been the wrong word for it the whole time. I mean, it's cool to call yourself a pirate and all, but maybe Hamburglars or something would have been better?

But then on the flipside, can you still be a pirate if you just like sailing ships, murdering, swordfighting, sleeping with whores, and drinking large amounts of alcohol but totally don't get involved with that whole stealing thing?

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Stealing is for pussies. HAHAHYARRRR!

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To me, the main problem with piracy is that it allows people to acquire a game for free when they can and would otherwise pay for it. Although these individuals aren't technically stealing, they are still depriving developers of money they would have definitely received if the pirate had just gone down to Best Buy and bought the game.

Or, as for the entirety (not most, but every single one of them) of movies I personally download, they are things I would not pay for. If they're free blockbusterish pirated versions, I'll have a look, if not, I'll never see them.

Why do I watch them then ? That or doing something else, if torrents are closed forever, I'll be pissed, but not for those movies at all, rather for the good comics that never reach France.

Example : never heard of Coraline : downloaded it, loved it, bought the score (never did that before) and brought my extended familly as soon as it was out in france (10 persons) to see it. Without the internet, with the little marketing they had, I would have missed it. Sometimes, it can bring something good.

Now, what happens when iTunes is based in Luxembourg to avoid french taxes ? I will not support or buy from a company that's implanted in France but uses loopholes to pay less and then uses the excuse of being more expansive in € than in $ (when the conversion rate would have it otherwise) on high french taxes…

So yes, when I can't buy it from somewhere else, I'll pirate it, no questions asked. I steal money from the artist, call it "theft" but avoiding massive taxation every year I would call that "massive theft"

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Videos!

UK people will know that this annoying little advert pops up at the beginning of a lot of UK DVDs. It's really irritating, especially when you can't skip it or something. It's also really loud (so it tends to make you jump), embarrassingly "hip", and horrendously patronizing. Enjoy it, foreigners.

HmZm8vNHBSU

It's obnoxiousness was nicely spoofed in an episode of the IT Crowd, too.

I9_hWoGrxWg

(Sorry if you've already seen these things.)

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They were on DVDs down here too for a while.

I'm in OssK's boat, often i'll end up buying things that i've previously torrented, especially music. For example, I torrented Justice by Justice, loved it and then bought it on iTunes. Not only do I like supporting good artists, I also get a better quality album, so it's win-win.

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I used to pirate music and movies about 10 years ago when Kazaa as a thing. Thing was, I was pirating music that simply wasn't available to me otherwise (international). What really changed it was Amazon and iTunes (and now even more Netflix).

There will always be piracy, making things as readily available to as many people as possible is the easiest way to stop casual piracy.

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