Dark Souls(Demon's Souls successor)

[Gormongous]

Well looks like you're ahead of me. I still have the Painted world left. I might check out the Ash lake, but frankly I really want to finish it. 

I'm using the elite knight set too. Everything is +5 but I don't really feel the need to farm. I have so much HP and Gwyn isn't particularly difficult at my current soul level. Hopefully I'll have Dark Souls finished by the end of this week. Feels good to say that!

 

Will you be picking up DS2 immediately Gormongous? I feel like I need a break, but then again I bet I'll be thinking about it constantly.

 

I'm actually leaning strongly towards NG+ with Dark Souls. I figure I'll burn out somewhere through that and then feel okay taking an indefinite break before Dark Souls 2. I really don't want to charge from one game into the other and run the risk of not appreciating the second because of fatigue or proximity. I think I'll make the run on Gwyn today.

 

You should make it to the Ash Lake, Griddle. It really only has one thing there, a hydra boss, and it is very beautiful.

[Griddlelol]

I'm feeling either trying a SL 1 run, or playing again as a magic user. Probably leaning more towards SL1. Kind of want to play DS2 now while it's still hot though. Especially as I've completely missed the online component. I keep hearing bad things about it though. Everyone seems to be so down on it, which makes me feel like just sticking with DS1 and saving myself £40.

I'll go >.< the hydra boss isn't making me feel better about it though. Those things suck.

[Sno]

What bad things are you hearing about DS2?

I've said some harsh things about it myself, but i still think it's a phenomenal game. I like it probably a bit less than Dark Souls, but while it's worse at some things, it's better at others things too.

[Dewar]

I like the moment by moment mechanics for DS2 (though that might be because I'm familiar with them, and I played Demon Souls inbetween, which had some interesting mechanical problems here and there) but I think the world was better in DS1. If nothing else, I've had a lot of fun with the plethera of online options since the servers are hot right now.

[Bjorn]

I'm with Sno on this one.  Yes, I could criticize DS2.  It ain't perfect.  But I would rather play it than pretty much anything else released in the last year. 

 

Short version of my praise/criticism is that overall I think it is mechanically better, more diverse and balanced while having a less brilliant world.  PvP and co-op are both much improved. 

[Griddlelol]

1) bosses are less memorable and/or cheap

2) difficult to solo due to the above

3) world isn't as interesting and feels smaller

4) enemy variety is low.

That's what I've heard and makes me think "do I need to play it?" Not sure how valid they are, but if it's a good game, it's a good game.

I am trying to think what else I could be playing, and it's nothing particularly exciting. I do want to play the pc RE4 port since I never finished it on game cube but that's it.

[Gormongous]

1) bosses are less memorable and/or cheap

2) difficult to solo due to the above

3) world isn't as interesting and feels smaller

4) enemy variety is low.

That's what I've heard and makes me think "do I need to play it?" Not sure how valid they are, but if it's a good game, it's a good game.

I am trying to think what else I could be playing, and it's nothing particularly exciting. I do want to play the pc RE4 port since I never finished it on game cube but that's it.

 

From what I've read elsewhere on the internet, all of these comments were leveled against Dark Souls by people who loved Demon Souls. Dark Souls 2 might not be as good of a game as its predecessors, but I think that any game that has only been out and played a few weeks is going to suffer in comparison to a similar game that's been out for years, simply because it's less known and understood. I certainly like a lot of what I see in the other thread.

 

In other news, I beat Gwyn today my first try, then immediately started NG+ and made it all the way to the Depths in just over an hour, including killing the Hellkite and Havel. I'd been told to expect it, but man, NG+ is so much easier compared to the base game. I'm sure it's because I'm four times as powerful as I was when I was last in the Undead Burg, while the enemies are at most just twice as powerful, but it's still a shock to make it all the way past the Taurus Demon without a single death. I think I might be right, though, in that this will burn me out on the game pretty quick. I definitely want to get my fill before the GFWL shutdown makes this a dead game, though.

[eot]

1) bosses are less memorable and/or cheap

2) difficult to solo due to the above

3) world isn't as interesting and feels smaller

4) enemy variety is low.

That's what I've heard and makes me think "do I need to play it?" Not sure how valid they are, but if it's a good game, it's a good game.

I am trying to think what else I could be playing, and it's nothing particularly exciting. I do want to play the pc RE4 port since I never finished it on game cube but that's it.

It's a good game. They doubled the staff but lost Miyazaki and the game reflects that. I booted up Dark Souls last night and it felt a bit like going back to ME1 from ME2. It's got more soul (no pun intended) but also way more jank. I'd be surprised if it isn't my favourite game of the year, it's just not going to be my favourite game of all time like the first one is.

[N1njaSquirrel]

1) bosses are less memorable and/or cheap

2) difficult to solo due to the above

3) world isn't as interesting and feels smaller

4) enemy variety is low.

That's what I've heard and makes me think "do I need to play it?" Not sure how valid they are, but if it's a good game, it's a good game.

I am trying to think what else I could be playing, and it's nothing particularly exciting. I do want to play the pc RE4 port since I never finished it on game cube but that's it.

 

A tip to make Dark Souls 2 harder (and therefore better): From the off, choose the depraved class, then join the company of champions.

 

Depraved class gives you no equipment bar the clothes you start off in, and the company of champions increases attack and HP of enemies by 20%, essentially NG+ without completing the game once.

 

this is what I did on my PC run of Dark Souls 2 and I'm enjoying it more than I did on my ps3 run. Also I think I've accepted and internalised the differences from 1 and 2, and therefore enjoying it a lot more. Also the whole knowing where to go and what to do is immensely satisfying for me. And the load times are lighting fast on the PC (my main irk of the ps3 version being the loading times taking an age)

[Griddlelol]

Yeah, I probably taking internet criticism a little too seriously. I really like Demon's souls, but I think Dark Souls is a better game. I was at first a little irritated that it was less linear than DeS, but I've grown to love that part.

 

Congrats on killing Gwyn. I was right then - the fight is kinda easy! I'm not sure what's with the depressing music though, I feel like I'm missing some part of the lore. 

I'm sure even if GFWL does go down that someone will mod it to ignore that. 

 

I suppose the ME comparison makes sense. ME1 is a better game, but it didn't stop me from enjoying the great ME2. The real reason I picked up ME2 is because I wanted to spend more time in that world after playing ME1 for countless hours. It wasn't as good as the first time, but it did scratch the itch. I guess DS2 will do that too. 

[eot]

Congrats on killing Gwyn. I was right then - the fight is kinda easy! I'm not sure what's with the depressing music though, I feel like I'm missing some part of the lore. 

My take on that.

He is the God of this world, there's a church dedicated to worshipping him, yet when you meet him he's just a burnt out husk. What little is left of him has kept this dying world going, but it's clearly coming to an end. So there's sad music because it's sad! This guy, the Lord of Sunlight (now Lord of Cinder), who led armies to defeat the dragons, fought to repel the demons and sacrificed himself to keep the world going, is spent. Even as he's fighting you it's a fight against the inevitable.

 

The whole game is sad, even if you don't realize it at first. The context for killing most of the bosses if that you're on this quest to cure the undead curse, but in actuality you're only being manipulated. Quelaag is trying to save her dying sister, Artorias (despite what his legend says) was corrupted by the Abyss, Sif dies trying to stop you from going in there for your own good, almost every NPC storyline ends with them going hollow etc.

 

Both the area itself (the Kiln) and the boss music is meant as a contrast to the rest of the game. The Kiln is covered in ash. It's not the moment of your glorious triumph, it's when you realize the sad, inevitable end of everything. You're just putting the world out of its misery.

[Griddlelol]

That's a really great way of looking at it. 

I have had the feeling the whole time that the character's actions have been fairly selfish. Killing constantly to remove his own curse.

There also seems to be lots of other people in the world who are striving for the same thing which makes me wonder if it's a race and what they are getting from doing it. 

I suppose I'll find out why it's really sad once I do it and see the ending. Currently I feel like it was a little bit odd because I was fighting the final boss. It should be triumphant. I'm reaching my goal. Can't wait to finish it!

 

One of the best parts (and thankfully I was pointed out to go there by people in this forum) was the painted world. There was actually a choice to kill the boss. I decided she was exiled there for a reason. Killing her won't affect the world I'm in and will help with my soul lust, so I did it. Even though she wasn't really a threat. No other bosses give you the option to not kill them. They just charge at you.

 

I'd really love to see a prequel. Like a dragon slayers edition. It'd be hard to keep it fresh and won't ever happen but I'd like to see this world when it was in its prime. 

[Dewar]

Yeah, I probably taking internet criticism a little too seriously. I really like Demon's souls, but I think Dark Souls is a better game. I was at first a little irritated that it was less linear than DeS, but I've grown to love that part.

 

Congrats on killing Gwyn. I was right then - the fight is kinda easy! I'm not sure what's with the depressing music though, I feel like I'm missing some part of the lore. 

I'm sure even if GFWL does go down that someone will mod it to ignore that. 

 

I suppose the ME comparison makes sense. ME1 is a better game, but it didn't stop me from enjoying the great ME2. The real reason I picked up ME2 is because I wanted to spend more time in that world after playing ME1 for countless hours. It wasn't as good as the first time, but it did scratch the itch. I guess DS2 will do that too.

Dark Souls 2 is more much linear than Dark Souls 1 (but not completely linear like Demon Souls) which I think contributes to item #3 on your list. If you prefer the linear-ness of Demon Souls, I wouldn't worry about that.

As for the other things you've heard....

#1: I have found about the same number of bosses that were truly interesting in Dark Souls 2 as I did in Dark Souls 1, however there are many more bosses in the newer game, leaving some bosses definitely feeling like filler bosses. So far, I haven't found any bosses cheap, but I'm playing a mixed melee and miracle build, meaning I can dish out short or long range damage as needed.

#2: There are a few bosses that seem like they'd be pretty dang hard to solo, but those usually have NPC summoning options to help out those people who don't want to play online. On the whole, I've completed more bosses Solo than teamed up myself.

#4: I would agree with this. A great deal of the enemies are humanoid and of the same basic archtypes with just numbers like life and attack speed increased or reduced. In some ways that's nice because it makes the weird enemies really stand out, but it also gets tiresome at times.

Mainly, what is really changing the game is the abundant online connectivity. Even if you aren't co-opping directly, there are tons of messages all around giving hints (on the good end) and ruining surprises (on the negative.) I'm finding the whole online experience to be worth other negatives. I love the co-op experience, and I've even had fun in the duels and bell tower invasions I've had.

[eot]

It can be hard to make sense of the story on your own, so once you're done I recommend looking up some lore videos on youtube. There's a series called 'prepare to cry' which is excellent. EpicNameBro also has good videos but they tend to be on the long side.

[Sno]

There's tons of tragic and sad stories in the underlying narratives for both of the Dark Souls games, and even in Demon's Souls from what i've heard of it. From apparently knows how to do Dark Fantasy.

 

In both of the games, the player character is largely a puppet for other forces in the narrative. In the first Dark Souls, you're being manipulated by the seprents to either try and renew a glimmer of a future for an inevitably fading age, an act that may or may not leave your character to suffer in eternal agony, or to usher in a new and uncertain age of a nebulously defined "darkness".

 

In Dark Souls 2, the manipulation of your new character is made even more explicit, clearly establishing that the sense of identity held by the undead is fluid and unreliable, their memories of their former lives fleeting and easily forgotten. Pay close attention to the opening few hours of the game, you're directed towards drangleic in the intro by what seems to the fourth fire keeper referenced in some early optional dialogue, and once the game starts, you're implied to be essentially an empty vessel being filled with a new purpose by outside intentions.

 

 

1) bosses are less memorable and/or cheap
2) difficult to solo due to the above
3) world isn't as interesting and feels smaller
4) enemy variety is low.

That's what I've heard and makes me think "do I need to play it?" Not sure how valid they are, but if it's a good game, it's a good game.
I am trying to think what else I could be playing, and it's nothing particularly exciting. I do want to play the pc RE4 port since I never finished it on game cube but that's it.

 

1) I don't think there are any bosses in DS2 that are as phenomenal as the O&S or Artorias fights from the first, but there also aren't any puzzle bosses like Ceaseless Discharge or the Bed of Chaos, and that's a huge point in its favor. I mean, and certainly, there are some really great fights in DS2, especially towards the end of the game.

2) I've played most of the game solo and generally found it a bit more forgiving than the first game, though some people are finding it harder than the first.

3) The world is probably actually bigger, but it's less intricate and winding. It's probably designed a little more like the linear areas in Demon's Souls.

4) I'll agree with this one, i don't think the enemy types are as varied as in DS1. I also think a lot of the AI and move repertoires displayed by both the bosses and the normal enemies aren't as fleshed out.

These answers alone won't really make a strong case for DS2 though, because most of DS2's strengths come in the nuances of gameplay, they've fixed and improved upon a lot of things.

[bkbroiler]

1) bosses are less memorable and/or cheap

2) difficult to solo due to the above

3) world isn't as interesting and feels smaller

4) enemy variety is low.

That's what I've heard and makes me think "do I need to play it?" Not sure how valid they are, but if it's a good game, it's a good game.

I am trying to think what else I could be playing, and it's nothing particularly exciting. I do want to play the pc RE4 port since I never finished it on game cube but that's it.

There are probably 4 areas in Dark Souls 2 I could name specifically that I think blow anything in Dark Souls 1 out of the water. I think the world is put together in a less clever way, but it is still very cool and the individual environments themselves are intricate and amazing looking. It's just that the entire thing doesn't lock together quite as much (though Dark Souls 1 kind of spokes off too. I just hear people talking about how cool it is too see the Undead Burg when you ring the first bell, which is one of the few areas of the game where you can directly look at some place you've been).

 

I don't find any of the main bosses cheap or difficult to solo. In fact I think the game might overall be easier than Dark Souls 1 (though I found the beginning way harder). That might just be me knowing more about what I need to do, though.

[Sno]

There's definitely some really fantastic areas in DS2, absolutely. The area design might actually be a little bit better on average.

What you lose is the sense that they all cohere, you don't really have things like looking out across all the areas you've previously been from atop Sen's Fortress, or looking out into the Izalith caverns to see the journey ahead of you. The spaces generally feel a little more confined and separate.

The most you really ever get in Dark Souls 2 is some things like... At Majula, you if you look out to the ocean and peer to the left, you can see Heide's Tower of Flame off in the distance, but it's presented as far further away than you could possibly have traveled underground to reach there. Stand in the same spot and look right, you can see the massive statues in the cliff side that belong to the fortress you explore in the forest of fallen giants, but again the geography doesn't quite match up.

That's the stuff that bums me out most about Dark Souls 2, after Dark Souls presented such a consistent and intricately constructed world.

[Bjorn]

There's definitely some really fantastic areas in DS2, absolutely. The area design might actually be a little bit better on average.

What you lose is the sense that they all cohere, you don't really have things like looking out across all the areas you've previously been from atop Sen's Fortress, or looking out into the Izalith caverns to see the journey ahead of you. The spaces generally feel a little more confined and separate.

The most you really ever get in Dark Souls 2 is some things like... At Majula, you if you look out to the ocean and peer to the left, you can see Heide's Tower of Flame off in the distance, but it's presented as far further away than you could possibly have traveled underground to reach there. Stand in the same spot and look right, you can see the massive statues in the cliff side that belong to the fortress you explore in the forest of fallen giants, but again the geography doesn't quite match up.

That's the stuff that bums me out most about Dark Souls 2, after Dark Souls presented such a consistent and intricately constructed world.

 

Drangleic is pretty intentionally supposed to be an entire country though, while Lordran was...a city-state?  Or a kind of Mt. Olympus place?  It was all condensed right there.  Which doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense, but made for some great design in some areas.

 

I overall like the world design of DS1 better, but I can appreciate that they were trying to convey the sense of a much larger land in DS2.  When you go through tunnels, I think it's meant to feel that you are actually traveling much further than you are (as evidenced by what you can see in the distance and the map).   This is not the home of the gods.  This is a land of men, with cities, villages, and forts.  Babies were born and grew to be men who eventually died or hollowed.  There is a sense humanity to the world of DS2 that I don't think is present in DS1.  DS1 is much more alien.  As a human, you are a trespasser in Lordran.  An interloper.   Drangleic may not have been your home, but it could have been.  It is one of the things I've grown to like about DS2's world design compared to Lordran.

[Dewar]

I liked the alien feel. I guess that's what I miss most actually. The improvement in mechanics and convenience in DS2 is well worth it though.

[Sno]

I just always really enjoyed how monolithic and surreal some of the locations in the first game are.

The Izalith stretch of the game, despite being probably the weakest part of the game, has some very strange and imposing visuals that always stood out to me. Or just even the incredibly towering concentric walls protecting Lordran, with Anor Londo at their center, that you spend most of the game fighting in and around.

[bkbroiler]

I will say one thing I really like about Dark Souls 1 that you guys are reminding me of is that the environment kind of feels like it isn't meant for players to be in it. By that I mean that it seems like you are finding your own way, and sometimes it feels like you are forging your own path to get to the next area, and where you are wasn't intended. I think the feeling that you aren't in a designed place for you is actually brilliant design, if any of what I said makes sense. 

[Sno]

Maybe? There are parts of Anor Londo that definitely feel like you are breaking the game, like you are creatively moving beyond the designed and intended playable space, but are in fact doing exactly what you are meant to be doing.

[Griddlelol]

So firstly. I didn't bother going to the ash lake last night. I spent a good 2 hours in the great hollow dying cheap deaths until I flipped the table and said fuck this place! I must have fallen 4 or 5 times. I got stuck in the level geometry twice (!) and punched to death. The game some times bugs out and won't let me lock on to enemies which led to more deaths until I closed and restarted the game. That place just sucked!

On the other hand I killed Gwyn. Parry, parry, parry (fuck up until I have one tiny slither of HP left), parry, he's dead! I actually liked that fight despite it being easy. He's a giant badass and my character just knocks his sword aside to kill him. Seems fitting after the long journey.

I now have some spoilery questions about the end and NG+...

so I lit the bonfire because, you know... It's dark souls. You light bonfires when you see them. It's a compulsion. Am I now Gwyn? Did my character reinstate the previous order of things, only without the gods? The kindling is now aflame, as though it has been restored to its previous power.

I'd like to think that, but the NG+ image of me throwing myself the key to leave the dungeon makes me think otherwise. As though there's a cycle and somehow lighting the bonfire has sent me back in time in order to change what I did. As though it was the wrong choice.

Anyway, I loved the ending. Loved the game. Kicking myself that I didn't play it sooner. I doubt I'll be playing NG+ though. I know enemies get harder, but with all the equipment and souls I have they don't seem like they'll be interesting for a while. I might start again and try a STR build, or try a SL1 run, although I'm not much of a dodger. Or i might pick up DS2.

I did have a taste of disappointment when I finished. I didn't really want the journey through that world to be over. Still, DS is officially in my favourite games of all time now. Thanks everyone for pushing me to try again, and thanks for the help!

[Gormongous]

Anyway, I loved the ending. Loved the game. Kicking myself that I didn't play it sooner. I doubt I'll be playing NG+ though. I know enemies get harder, but with all the equipment and souls I have they don't seem like they'll be interesting for a while. I might start again and try a STR build, or try a SL1 run, although I'm not much of a dodger. Or i might pick up DS2.

I did have a taste of disappointment when I finished. I didn't really want the journey through that world to be over. Still, DS is officially in my favourite games of all time now. Thanks everyone for pushing me to try again, and thanks for the help!

 

Congratulations! And yeah, I don't really recommend NG+. Without the sense and risk of the unknown, the game is just an exercise in personal excellence, which I don't find as interesting. I dismantled the Depths, including the Gaping Dragon, in thirty minutes tonight. I feel like I'm speed-running the game even though I'm still exploring every corner and getting every item. It's a little bit of a letdown.

 

Actually, the best part of NG+ is getting invaded again by people who blew through the game and hence have a vastly worse kit and SL than me. Both invaders, I just drained their stamina beating down their shield, then killed them in two hits. There is nothing better in the PvP part of the game than getting invaded by someone who thinks they're going to fuck you up and then wrecking shop on them as they try to come to terms with the fact that they're trapped in your world and you are going to kill them. I know, it sounds a little sadistic, but whatever.

[Griddlelol]

Yeah that doesn't interest me in the slightest. DS isn't a power fantasy, it's the complete opposite. I might try a SL1 run and see how far I get until I'm too frustrated. I have no interest in becoming a magic user, and the str build feels a bit too close to what I was already using, just slower and more tanky. I think I might just play resident evil 4 instead.