Sully907

Dark Souls(Demon's Souls successor)

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I'm tackling the first boss now, the

taurus demon

, and I am having some real issues with the checkpoint before it. The boss is fun and challenging and I'd love to experiment to try to figure out how to beat it. But I'm not doing that. No, I'm going on the internet to read a walkthrough on optimal strategies. Why? Because I don't want to replay 10 minutes of game just to try again once.

 

I get it, Dark Souls is "hard". But having to replay a big chunk of game before getting to a boss isn't difficult, or challenging - it's a waste of my time and hugely demotivating. There is a very good reason this outdated design isn't used anymore. They should've put checkpoints right before the boss. I know some people will be quick to see this as a complaint about the difficulty level, or point out that if you have better checkpoints, it would take the sting out of dying. But I disagree with that. The part I need to replay is extremely easy. It doesn't make the game more tense, it makes it more boring and it's a turn-off. The challenge is the boss itself. You're already at risk of losing souls and humanity. Take those things, but don't make me repeat rote passages I've already done before. Perhaps Dark Souls' biggest punishment for dying is annoying the shit out of you by making you retread old ground. Does that sound like challenging and difficult? Nope, and it makes me play the game very differently than how I think was the idea: instead of figuring out the mysteries on my own, it's safer to just look up everything online to prevent having to replay ten minutes.

 

I want to like this game, and for the most part I do, but it's stuff like this that makes me sigh wistfully and think there are other things I could be doing right now that are more interesting and a better allocation of my time. You're screwing up as a game if that's the thinking you inspire. OR am I missing something crucial here?

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I'm tackling the first boss now, the

taurus demon

, and I am having some real issues with the checkpoint before it. The boss is fun and challenging and I'd love to experiment to try to figure out how to beat it. But I'm not doing that. No, I'm going on the internet to read a walkthrough on optimal strategies. Why? Because I don't want to replay 10 minutes of game just to try again once.

 

I get it, Dark Souls is "hard". But having to replay a big chunk of game before getting to a boss isn't difficult, or challenging - it's a waste of my time and hugely demotivating. There is a very good reason this outdated design isn't used anymore. They should've put checkpoints right before the boss. I know some people will be quick to see this as a complaint about the difficulty level, or point out that if you have better checkpoints, it would take the sting out of dying. But I disagree with that. The part I need to replay is extremely easy. It doesn't make the game more tense, it makes it more boring and it's a turn-off. The challenge is the boss itself. You're already at risk of losing souls and humanity. Take those things, but don't make me repeat rote passages I've already done before. Perhaps Dark Souls' biggest punishment for dying is annoying the shit out of you by making you retread old ground. Does that sound like challenging and difficult? Nope, and it makes me play the game very differently than how I think was the idea: instead of figuring out the mysteries on my own, it's safer to just look up everything online to prevent having to replay ten minutes.

 

I want to like this game, and for the most part I do, but it's stuff like this that makes me sigh wistfully and think there are other things I could be doing right now that are more interesting and a better allocation of my time. You're screwing up as a game if that's the thinking you inspire. OR am I missing something crucial here?

 

It's too late for me at night to give this the response it deserves, and I didn't get much further than you in the game (just to the first bell), but I think the inconvenient checkpoints is very much at the core of Dark Souls' design. The game is all about cultivating a careful and methodical -- but never hesitant -- playstyle. Part of that means putting you through rote sections following death, not only as a palate cleanser, but also to keep the boss battles from being isolated from the normal flow of gameplay. Getting to the boss is just as important as fighting the boss and, because of that, Dark Souls isn't going to meet you halfway.

 

I know that section of the Undead Burg you're talking about by heart. Even though I haven't touched the game since May, I could probably still get to the Taurus Demon's rampart in one go without taking more than a single hit, if only because I ran it two dozen times trying to figure out the deal with that fucker at the bottom of the tower. That's muscle memory you don't get a chance to develop in many other games, which I think is special enough in itself.

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I like the palate cleanser argument, because the very nature of the game means you simply can't, mustn't, become angry and careless, because then even slight minions will kill you. I don't think it alone justifies it, but I get that at least.

 

The flow argument makes less sense for me, since the bosses are so hard and inscrutable you will die at their hands many times at once. To me, that breaks the flow rather than guiding it along. It's bashing yourself like a wave on a cliff, it's a terminus.

 

Neither point invalidates my argument that this way of design hampers experimentation by being too punitive. But, you know, maybe Dark Souls is just a tiny bridge too far for me. It stings, because I know what an amazing experience it is when it does click.

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Nope, you haven't missed anything. You're being punished and it gets worse later in the game, so if you really hate it then you should drop it now. The best advice I can give to cope with boss runs is that it's faster if you just run past enemies rather than fighting them, but it still takes time.

 

Dark Souls isn't really a "hard" game as much as it is a frustrating one. Part of the reason people like it is because of the euphoric feeling for having overcome long periods of frustration. The game is really not designed to respect your time. It's the player's responsibility to think about what options they have available and minimize the amount of time they have to invest to overcome a section.

 

The only thing the game does to alleviate that frustration is with the online mechanics of player messages and co-op. In my playthrough I actually ended up relying a lot on online resources to help me because I felt it was partly intended for most players to get help playing the game, although perhaps not to the extent of using wikis and youtube.

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he flow argument makes less sense for me, since the bosses are so hard and inscrutable you will die at their hands many times at once. To me, that breaks the flow rather than guiding it along. It's bashing yourself like a wave on a cliff, it's a terminus.

 

Neither point invalidates my argument that this way of design hampers experimentation by being too punitive. But, you know, maybe Dark Souls is just a tiny bridge too far for me. It stings, because I know what an amazing experience it is when it does click.

 

Dark Souls was toned down a little from it's predecessor Demon's Souls as far as difficulty is concerned.  For most of the boss battles you are able to hang back and observe the boss' movements and attack patterns.  Take your time and be defensive, and focus on mobility rather than armor.  With this approach you can usually defeat bosses in 1-2 attempts.  Also, summoning other players usually is an "easy mode" button, but will also teach you the strategy used to kill bosses.

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I downed the beast. It wasn't that hard, and I was able to run past all of the monsters without getting beat up too much. I'm now on the guarded bridge, which is an awesome spectacle. So, let's see if it stays doable. At least I'm progressing!

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That's good to hear. Things got really awesome for me after ringing the first bell. Unfortunately, I had to return the game to the rental place at that point.

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I spent a lot of time in the Undead Burg because I kept getting killed by the Taurus Demon. What that area does is really beat the mechanics and spirit of the game in you. Just be patient until you feel that the zombies are no threat. It gets to a point where you're comfortable enough with your character that I was able to progress rather comfortably between checkpoints, which I think are more generous than people give them credit for (except for when you're just starting out, then they feel miles and miles away). Just get comfortable with your character - find a weapon whose damage and speed you like, and armor whose protection and speed suit you.

 

My problem was actually the bosses. I got stuck on Quelaag and haven't been back in a few months. Not even phantoms were able to help.

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OK, I've gotten much further now (Depths) and am really enjoying it now. It seems it's just that one hump when you start out and you hit the first wall of 'wait, I have to retrace all my steps?'. Once you pass it, you become amazingly flexible in your approach to this game. I've been blasting through whole portions, defeated various bosses without too much effort, and it's great. Today I walked into New Londo Ruins, died a ton of times, but had a blast fighting ghosts.

 

And I'm still really waiting and dreading the moment when the game gets really tough. So far everything is just so very doable, I hadn't expected that in the least. Sure, I'm running around cursed because a basilisk looked at me the wrong way, but that's part of the fun.

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I never finished, more to do with life than getting frustrated.  But everything always feels doable, just really tough most of the time.  

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OK, I've got much further now (Depths) and am really enjoying it now. It seems it's just that one hump when you start out and you hit the first wall of 'wait, I have to retrace all my steps?'. Once you pass it, you become amazingly flexible in your approach to this game. I've been blasting through whole portions, defeated various bosses without too much effort, and it's great. Today I walked into New Londo Ruins, died a ton of times, but had a blast fighting ghosts.

 

And I'm still really waiting and dreading the moment when the game gets really tough. So far everything is just so very doable, I hadn't expected that in the least. Sure, I'm running around cursed because a basalisk looked at me the wrong way, but that's part of the fun.

 

 

I think the game actually gets progressively easier as it goes on. (I will say though, i did find the Tomb of the Giants to be a total motherfucker, but everybody seems to struggle with different areas.)

As has been said variously, the game isn't actually as balls-crushingly difficult as its reputation implies, it just doesn't suffer fools. Once you figure out how to deal with what it expects out of you as a player, it's totally doable.

 

I would even argue that the game does show a great deal of respect for its players. It does not coddle you, it believes you are an intelligent person. It allows you to make mistakes, be harmed by them, consider them, and then learn from them and course correct. It is an RPG that is not just about systemized progression, but mastery of those systems.

You should get that curse fixed, also.

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Yeah, I've had about as much fun with the ghosts as I want to, so I'm getting that curse fixed, then visit the undead asylum, then into the depths again. Though maybe I wanna stay cursed for a while just to clear out the basilisk pit and get that done.

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Edit: Nevermind, i was misremembering something.

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A lot of people say the Souls games are hard, but I feel that's a misnomer - it's more that, as you started out complaining about, they are unforgiving. Once you get the right playstyle you can get through most of the game without too many deaths. It's getting to that point that takes patience and practice.

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I battled

the Gaping Dragon

and that was amazingly fun. Not hard, but very impressive. I want to do it again, actually!

 

Also, I went ahead with my plan and returned to the Depths and the basilisk pits while cursed. Inching along carefully, I managed to clear out the entire area, including

another butcher.

Not bad, if I may say so myself.

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I'm now a good 26 hours in. I've somehow gotten really lucky and obtained a Black Knight Sword from one of the early knights. It's an amazing weapon and has replaced my Drake Sword easily. I love the way my fighter ("Robbuste" is his name) slings it over his shoulder. I've upgraded it a little and now I'm hacking my way easily through anything the game throws at me [at this stage].

 

A really cool fight was against

Havel the Rock, who has such a powerful blow it'll kill you in one hit. After dying a few times, I hit upon the right way to defeat him: butt naked. I unequipped all my armor, because it wasn't doing me any good in this fight. The benefit was that I suddenly moved and rolled incredibly fast, so I could just strafe around Havel and swing at him from behind. Easy as cake. The insult to injury for him was that he, the most decked-out dude in the game, was killed by me, a spiny zombie wearing naught but a loin cloth. This game.

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Only problem with black knight sword is that some of its strong attacks are really slow to pull off, even though they look super cool.

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I'm about 60 hours in and working my way through what you'd probably call the second half of the game. Despite what everyone told me the mouse+kb controls work alright, at least with the mouse fix. Based on what I've played so far I think the game is at its strongest pre-Anor Londo. Later on the locations are more scattered and you don't get the same revelatory moments of discovering an amazing shortcut as often. I don't know if I can hold that against the game, because the interconnectivity of the core areas makes it probably the most impressive piece of world design I've seen in a game. Keeping that up with twice the number of areas would've been insane, but that doesn't change the fact that running into a dead end isn't as interesting, especially with the high bar they set for themselves.

 

The areas I picked first are probably some of the weaker ones too if I had to guess, at least I hope they are. Demon Ruins felt like a first draft of a zone, it's lacking the density of most other areas in the game. Lost Izalith is that times five. If I never have to make that three minute run from the bonfire to Bed of Chaos again it will be too soon. After that I went to the Great Hollow and stupidly spent an hour collecting all the things in there that I don't actually need. Conceptually it's a cool area but it's not that fun in practice. I think I might go to the Duke's Archives next simply because the first room full of enemies there kicked my ass when I poked in there, and after all this running I miss having to slow down the pace.

 

I think the game Dark Souls reminds me of the most is Super Metroid. Obviously their world design and structure is very similar, areas connect to oneanother in interesting and surprising ways, and when you know your way around you can do a lot of sequence breaking. It's more than that though, to me both games are about exploring new areas, but also becoming familiar with them. I think the latter is what I enjoy the most, they're both games that force you to understand a level but reward you for it because they pack them so full of stuff that you keep disovering new things again and again. You actually build a relationship with the world instead of it just being something you pass through once. I don't think either game would work if they gave you much more direction than they do. They don't tell you everything because being a bit lost or confused is what makes it rewarding to finally become confident.

 

In some ways I think the level design in Super Metroid is more impressive because of how your relationship with a level changes as you unlock new platforming abilities, but on the other hand a 3D world like Dark Souls' seems more challenging to design. I also think the combat adds a tension to exploration that Super Metroid doesn't quite have.

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Shame to hear, because I'm making my way through Blighttown for the first time and it's amazing. What a fantastic level design, it reminded me instantly of Resident Evil 4. Super tense, pretty scary, entirely Dark Souls.

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Then you still have a ton of great locations to explore :) this game is big

Say hi to the Anor Londo archers from me when you get there, you'll know which ones.

 

One thing I love is the optional areas. It's amazing how much you could completely miss, which makes it so rewarding when you disover it.

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From Software has gone on record as saying that the demon ruins/izalith branch is basically the result of them running out of time. It's a rush job, essentially.

The Duke's Archives are pretty amazing from a level design/architectural standpoint but I really don't like playing through them which is always a weird bit of cognitive dissonance. Sen's Fortress is sort of the opposite for me. I think it's cool that Dark Souls has an area for everyone, really.

btw rodi, if you ever need a friendly phantom let me know :)

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YES I'M INTERESTED

 

I can't get on to FaceBook at work, are there any details of what it entails posted there? Like when it starts or how limited the spaces are?

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