Video games

[MrHoatzin]

Hey, you're alive! Welcome back.

[Drath]

It's definitely just a phase. I go through it a lot. Because I work so much on websites (personally/professionally), I sometimes get completely lost in it and don't play any games - well that's kind of impossible, but maybe like 3 hours a week which is a lot less than my normal of 20+. This sometimes lasts for months. But I guess it's kind of different, because at some points I would be like "Wow, I wish I could play some games right now" - but don't.

[miffy495]

Another thing that happens is I find myself going in platform cycles. For a few months earlier this year, all I wanted to do was play my PSP. I have no idea why. Then I went through my "summer of PC" where I've burned through about 15 games on my Steam list. The past week or two, it's been all Wii all the time. Usually this happens when there's one game that I really want to play that gets me started on the platform, then I just binge on other games on the same thing for a while. The Wii was brought on by Other M coming out (and also playing Kirby and DKCR at PAX), but I'm also putting a bunch of time into Mario Galaxy 2 and Sin and Punishment Star Successor now as a by-product. The PSP was Half Minute Hero, and lead to a ton of Metal Gear, Patapon 2, and Vice City Stories. The PC was probably just that summer Steam sale making me go crazy and then play a ton of things. But yeah, I don't know how much you have available to you, but just making a switch from gamepad to mouse and keyboard or to remote, or stylus, or whatever can be enough to keep it fresh sometimes too. I don't think it's a coincidence that each of the platforms I've really gotten into this year use quite different control methods. Let one skill fade a bit, then pick it up again so it feels like a fresh challenge. Kind of like what OssK was saying, but also a way to speed up the process.

[OssK]

Hey, you're alive! Welcome back.

My my my, thank you sir !

Back for the end some might say

Onto the topic at hand, I'd add that you should watch the indie scene my dear Thunda peer, for your salvation will probably come from there. In the meantime, you'll probably have to go my favorite Lobster's way : sink hours in plant vs zombie and mediate on the meaning of life as a duel of living and growing creatures vs the tyranny of dead ideas and conservative thoughts embodied by zombies.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I've been thinking about this more and I think Ossk is right (hi, Ossk!), I'm not necessarily tired of video games, I'm tired what's available at the moment. There's nothing (I've seen recently, please point me in a direction if I'm missing something) that's really challenged me or done something I've truly never seen before.

Not that every game is bad, just that I think I want more than they're able to give at the moment. I want something profound, or at least unlike anything I've ever played... and I think after 30 years of video games, we're all owed that.

The last thing that really blew my mind was Braid, I think. Something truly different. I do really want to play Batman: Arkham Asylum and Red Dead Redemption, and I know I'll enjoy them, but I don't know if I'll complete them.

I just saw the new Bioshock Infinit3 gameplay trailer and yeah, it looks really impressive. The game wants me to be immersed in this amazing world. Ok, it's not as immediately compelling as Rapture (I loved that underwater art-deco feel) but it certainly look somewhat like something I've never seen before. And yet all the way through the trailer, all I could think is: Why is she wearing that dress?

Odd thing to notice, but I'm sick and tired of teenage wet dreams. I want a game with some real substance. Some real meat. Not, "our game's only female character needs to look sexy and sport a bustier with plenty of cleavage". It's embarrassing, and the dialogue wasn't much better. It's all second-rate film dialogue...

So, I think, that's my beef.

Does this sound right, or am I just talking utter ?

[OssK]

Sorry, I might have to plug my shit here :

A while ago, a friend and I went on to create a video games series that sadly died with our camera, but it was all about what games are. Of course, one of the questions that arose was "are they art" and with that came "what is art"…

And into pop culture, that's a question that's been widely debated. Some dismiss it (of course it is (/not) art !) but basically the two biases are :

• -Either you say everything in [said category] is art and then all of a sudden, it's not that interesting to be an artist : if packing shit in cans is enough to be one, well…*I wouldn't want to be Da Vinci.
  
• -Or, art is a subset of œuvres from a larger category (paintings, not all paintings are art, not all films are art and so on)… Then I'd like to be an artist, but who gets to decide who picks art from nonart ?
  
  • -Either the "masses" get to pick (also known as : history will tell) but that approach has been invalidated by the "rediscovering" of marvelous artists, so the public's attention / success of something does not make it art.
    
  • -Or the experts, and then who watches the watchmen and/or aren't they too clustered into trends and fashions to judge the value of something ?
    

So what we defined as art was "something that gives you back the attention you lend". You give your attention to a painting, and it talks to you, it influences you, your behavior is changed, your culture affected. You spend time watching Citizen Kane, and you get something in return.

Do everyone get it ? Probably not, but it has to have a certain

Does it depend on who's watching ? No it can't, because that would mean that it's relativistic and then there is no rule, there is no "art / nonart".

See the lil' conflict here ? :x

So there : after that short foreword, I can say that most movies, most games and so-on, are not art. They are entertainment. Which, after enough repetition, we tire off of. When new and exciting games will come out, we might all learn things about ourselves we did not know, if, for once, a game was looking at you.

http://the-witness.net/news/?p=438

[vimes]

Well, maybe art is a relativistic concept and then your definition will be satisfying for some.*

I don't think there's any issue with this approach : it's much less dramatic/pretentious than looking for a rule and it's more honest, since it pretends to help identifying art rather than offering guidelines to get there.

It's more useful too : if you tell people that they can find ways to engineer art from the ground up provided they look hard enough; it inhibits their own vision (since it might not fit existing ones) rather than empower them. And in video games, with the existing pressure to meet 'market's expectations', inhibitions is not what game creatives need more of.

For now, I only know a few games that feature The Complete Multimedia Art Package, but I know I'm not having a hard time finding bits of it here and there : the vistas of Red Dead, the gameplay implications of Civ, the 'social' mindgames of Spy Party, the sound design of Dead Space void sequence, the music of Sam and Max, the writing of Grim Fandango and the GTA Radio Stations, the narrative structure of the Path, the gameflow of Mario Galaxy and Passage, the expressive tools of LBP... then, to meet our expectations, there are also tools to try to achieve the vision we might have. Because at one point, if you can't find anything that resonates with you and video games are a significant part of your intellectual life, it's kind of important ato put your balls on the chopping block and participate in creating something that attempts to fit your 'needs'.

I mean, look at the Zombie Cow duo, they made a game about vagina invasion, and see how fulfilled they sound!

*Well, I don't agree when you say it's all about learning stuff about yourself - for me, something is more valuable to me if it actually introduces me to other people view I never thought existed

[ThunderPeel2001]

I admit that haven't read your entire post, Ossk, I'm in a bit of a hurry, but I notice the discussion is about to turn into "what is art" and I wanted to say: I don't think I expect games to be art, I just want them to be first class entertainment, no aping second rate movies.

Of course, if they did (or have) transcend(ed) into art then that's good, too.

I'll respond properly when I'm not in a hurry (apologies for the bad form).

[juv3nal]

Either you say everything in [said category] is art and then all of a sudden, it's not that interesting to be an artist : if packing shit in cans is enough to be one, well…*I wouldn't want to be Da Vinci.

I'm squarely in this camp, but I think you draw the wrong conclusion from it. It may not be that interesting to be an artist, but it's still just as interesting to be a good artist worthy of other people's attention and time. And the question of what is good or worthwhile art is the more important/interesting one.

[Kolzig]

Hey ThunderPeel, You should clear up your PM quota.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Cleared!

[OssK]

Oh man, I'm so late on this…

Three month later, Ossk's back to reply ;P

Well, maybe art is a relativistic concept and then your definition will be satisfying for some.

{Well, I don't agree when you say it's all about learning stuff about yourself - for me, something is more valuable to me if it actually introduces me to other people view I never thought existed}

What I mean by "learning things about yourself" is actually just learning things. One might think that, cornered, I have to pretend and change words around but no : when you learn something completely new, there is a voice in your head that goes "genius". And that moment, when you realize that you saw something you never saw, you heard something you never heard, that is Art™.

When you know that you are casting what you just experienced in a part of your brain and that it will never go away, that, in my opinion, is the art moment. It changes you, and teaches you something that was there…*I mean, the fact that you can understand it, often enough, is the proof that your brain is wired to accept that concept, and that you might be able to reuse it…

You, as a cognitive person, are changed.

Then again, this is my take on the subject of the "what is art" but I thought about it a lot and have written a decent amount on it to find something that is as pleasing to me intellectually as this process is.

I don't think there's any issue with this approach : it's much less dramatic/pretentious than looking for a rule and it's more honest, since it pretends to help identifying art rather than offering guidelines to get there.

Well…*But then, what is art? I mean, if anything can be art as long as it's liked, what about other civilizations? What about art we don't know about? Is it not art at all because we ignore it's existence?

It's more useful too : if you tell people that they can find ways to engineer art from the ground up provided they look hard enough; it inhibits their own vision (since it might not fit existing ones) rather than empower them. And in video games, with the existing pressure to meet 'market's expectations', inhibitions is not what game creatives need more of.

Well…*yeah… You're right, except that even if such a framework existed, it would have, to qualify as a decent art framework, to contain everything… Every single of the "visions" that could exist or come out of human's minds…

And then what ? Then if things are art and things aren't it doesn't means they can't exist ! For now, video games are so fucking far away from being art pieces for like…*99.99% of them, and it doesn't bother anyone but a handful of jerks…

What bothers me is not that they aren't, it's that they can't be.

For now, I only know a few games that feature The Complete Multimedia Art Package, but I know I'm not having a hard time finding bits of it here and there : the vistas of Red Dead, the gameplay implications of Civ, the 'social' mindgames of Spy Party, the sound design of Dead Space void sequence, the music of Sam and Max, the writing of Grim Fandango and the GTA Radio Stations, the narrative structure of the Path, the gameflow of Mario Galaxy and Passage, the expressive tools of LBP... then, to meet our expectations, there are also tools to try to achieve the vision we might have. Because at one point, if you can't find anything that resonates with you and video games are a significant part of your intellectual life, it's kind of important ato put your balls on the chopping block and participate in creating something that attempts to fit your 'needs'.

I mean, look at the Zombie Cow duo, they made a game about vagina invasion, and see how fulfilled they sound!

I mean…*I'm a game designer…*I make games happen too… But I can't make them out of the blue, especially if they ought to be art…

I mean, there is something in the Marriage that can be observed as art, but to me it's more like an aquarium…*You try and understand what's happening, not really knowing if there are rules or not… And then you interpret what you see. Truthfully, all the colors of Mona Lisa, a sketch of her face, an empty canvas and a pile of brushes don't make art. There needs to be an artist, and in our case, the BIG question is : who is it ? The player or the makers ?

I admit that haven't read your entire post, Ossk, I'm in a bit of a hurry, but I notice the discussion is about to turn into "what is art" and I wanted to say: I don't think I expect games to be art, I just want them to be first class entertainment, no aping second rate movies.

But then…*What is first class entertainment ? Citizen Kane is a movie… It is entertainment…*Plays ? Litterature ? They are entertainment… Just so good we call it art.

I'm squarely in this camp, but I think you draw the wrong conclusion from it. It may not be that interesting to be an artist, but it's still just as interesting to be a good artist worthy of other people's attention and time. And the question of what is good or worthwhile art is the more important/interesting one.

Yeah…*But you fall on your ass back again if you say "everything is art but not everything is good art"… Because once you get there, you're still screwed on the "what is (good) art" level aren't you ?