toblix

BioShock Infinite

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Why are you being so aggressive? I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion about this. I agree with you on most of these issues, I just felt that the levels of reaction were surprising. You're arguing against people that don't even exist in this discussion. I don't see how: "I don't see the big deal." gets put on the same level as: "Titties! Fuck yeah!"

I'll stop making jokes then sad%20face.jpg

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I am in no way defending the sexualization of women in video games here, but why now? Are you not going to play Infinite because of it? Why this line in the sand, why not the last one? Is it just the stupid need to have a crusade against something?

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Hyperbole is probably the best way to describe it, yes. Ignore me, carry on.

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I am in no way defending the sexualization of women in video games here, but why now? Are you not going to play Infinite because of it? Why this line in the sand, why not the last one? Is it just the stupid need to have a crusade against something?

I like to think that I raise the point for every game with unnecessary sexual objectification that I take part in a discussion about. I haven't really gone back through my Internet logs and checked to see whether I do this or not but it at least feels like I do it more often then not. I don't think being angry with sexism in video games is "a stupid crusade against something" and I don't think I've drawn any lines in the sand.

So the answer to "why now" is "why not?"

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I think the focus of that kind of energy should be on the lack of good female characters in games. Women in every visual medium have been hypersexualized as long as visual mediums have existed. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but its something that everyone has to acknowledge. But many of those mediums have developed strong, interesting, and complex female characters despite this.

If you have a less sexualized woman that serves no significant purpose in the plot, has no agency, and has no developed character, she is still just an object. A less aesthetically pleasing one to the masses, but still just an object. Write a pretty woman well and the character has the ability to challenge their objectification. All that leads to is a system like the pre-mpaa Hays Code era of film. There is self censorship on the grounds of "decency" but for the most part you get no less objectification of women, its just expressed in a different way; the soft focus, the sexualization of different aspects of the female form, and the lack of agency that female characters have in that era of filmmaking.

(Now of course, an even larger issue is for the most part in gaming there aren't ANY good characters or writing. Lack of good female characters is just one aspect of this lack of focus or ability in writing in games.)

As a side note for this specific example, the type of captivity that is suggested for Elizabeth (not in jail, kept by guards in fancy place instead of by restraints in a dungeon) suggests some kind of trophy for somebody in power, and generally those types of captives are kept pretty by whoever is in control. One does not generally have much of a choice in their appearance when they are in captivity.

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I mean, I don't complain literally anytime I can see someone's breasts in a video game. The problem with Elizabeth isn't that she has boobs, it's that she's the other main character in the game and so of course she's got to show off her tits. The objectification is a problem because you can't have a normal female character like Cortana or Elizabeth or Samara: you have to give her massive mammaries and show them off at every turn.

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Once you have someone wearing a corset the cleavage is basically going to happen

I own two corsets and here's a secret: you can wear something under or over them. IN FACT you're supposed to at the very least wear a slip under them so they don't get pinchy and abrasive (and dirty - corsets are harder to launder than a slip would be).

So perhaps Elizabeth could have a higher neckline, such as one where her norks aren't in danger of falling out every time she inhales.

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I'll stop making jokes then sad%20face.jpg

I'm okay with jokes ... I like jokes! I just didn't interpret your tone as anywhere near joking. More sardonic than anything, which I guess is kind of like joking.

Anyway, it's fine by me that you don't like it. I don't really like it either. Your interpretation of those who were not as passionate as you was what mostly threw me. It was as if you were upset that we couldn't agree about how purple the purple was.

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For what it's worth, I know some serious steampunk fans — girls who dress up for conventions and the lot — and what they choose to wear is pretty much exactly along the lines of how BioShock's character is depicted.

Again, what real-life, actual women decide they want to wear isn't the point anyone was trying to make.. This is about how developers decide to dress up their make-believe video game girls.

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It doesn't even bother me that much. It's just one drop in a way over filled bucket and I had previously thought Levine and his merry gang were a bit more sophisticated. His arguments and surprise at why people looked at her boobs, it just came off as very disingenuous.

Also, every time anyone argues somewhere along these lines and the counter argument is "eh, I don't care, why do you?" It gets on my nerves, because it's such a non-argument.

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Again, what real-life, actual women decide they want to wear isn't the point anyone was trying to make.. This is about how developers decide to dress up their make-believe video game girls.

I don't understand how it's not relevant. Developers use reality as a reference in most cases, so surely how women choose to dress in real life is completely relevant? They didn't completely make these dresses up, after all.

... OK, maybe the Soul Calibre dudes did. But again, Irrational's depiction with at least one cross-genre and real-life depiction of steampunk women in general and that seems fine to me.

There's probably a wider issue at play but some of the comments in this thread make me think their authors won't be happy until female game characters are flat-chested munters dressed in overalls. Some sexualisation really isn't a bad thing IMO, it's a secondary issue to the actual roles women in games often have.

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If game developers use reality as a reference you'd think we'd get a wide variety of female body types and a wide variety of female fashion choices. Instead everyone from Cortana to Elizabeth has a shapely form and revealing clothing, even if it makes no sense for an AI to walk around naked or for a woman in 1912 to be wearing a dress showing off massive cleavage.

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If game developers use reality as a reference you'd think we'd get a wide variety of female body types and a wide variety of female fashion choices. Instead everyone from Cortana to Elizabeth has a shapely form and revealing clothing, even if it makes no sense for an AI to walk around naked or for a woman in 1912 to be wearing a dress showing off massive cleavage.

Yeah but that's just how entertainment works. How many ugly, fat bastards do you see playing leading men in films? People have a general preference for attractive if not sexy characters when it concerns the magical world of fiction, and that goes for women too — there's no shortage of eye candy for them. Just look how buff and unnecessarily naked that Kratos dude is!

If I have to put up with my girlfriend visibly creaming herself when characters like Bane get their muscles out and any number of other chiseled blokes in films (and games, actually), it seems fair game for some boobage to follow.

Like I say though, as long as the actual character of the woman is sound then it's all good. If a woman is completely objectified and turned into nothing more than titilation then that's a separate and indeed unacceptable issue, but how they're dressed is a fairly small factor IMO apart from the extreme examples that need no introduction.

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I don't understand how it's not relevant. Developers use reality as a reference in most cases, so surely how women choose to dress in real life is completely relevant? They didn't completely make these dresses up, after all.

Yes.. if Bioshock Infinite were a game about your steampunk female friends at a conference in the 20s, then they'd obviously have referenced real life. (And hey, who knows, with all the time rifts and stuff, maybe Elizabeth is actually a steampunk fan from the 20s :o )

But really, I'd hope they'd reference how women dressed in real life in 1912. That would be completely relevant. As it is, it sort of feels like the reference was a screening of Moulin Rouge.

How many ugly, fat bastards do you see playing leading men in films?

There's probably a wider issue at play but some of the comments in this thread make me think their authors won't be happy until female game characters are flat-chested munters dressed in overalls. Some sexualisation really isn't a bad thing IMO, it's a secondary issue to the actual roles women in games often have.

How is covering up her massive cleavage the same as saying she should be an ugly, fat bastard. Really, there's also just.. a difference in how massive her cleavage can be. I feel like you're equating us with prudes, which is pretty fucking annoying. I'm not going "my, oh, my.. look at all them blasphemous teets.. they are simply too big! why does this girl not look like my granny?!"

I just wish Ken Levine and Co. had just the tiniest bit of restraint, maybe showing us a tiny bit less cleavage, and not plaster it all over every fucking screenshot, especially when they otherwise put a lot of work into making her a pretty good character.

I agree that it's a secondary issue to the roles females play in games, but that doesn't make it any less of an issue that when a game is as smart as Bioshock Infinite is about most things, they still go ahead and pander to the lowest common denominator when designing their women.

If you don't care, that's fine. Just don't tell me that I shouldn't care, or that I should stop before I make all women dress in overalls.

EDIT: Also, there are loads of ugly leading men in films. They're not the majority, sure, but a long time ago Hollywood realised that men also wanted to see men that looked like themselves in leading roles. Old, ugly, fat men.

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Yes.. if Bioshock Infinite were a game about your steampunk female friends at a conference in the 20s, then they'd obviously have referenced real life. (And hey, who knows, with all the time rifts and stuff, maybe Elizabeth is actually a steampunk fan from the 20s :o )

But really, I'd hope they'd reference how women dressed in real life in 1912. That would be completely relevant. As it is, it sort of feels like the reference was a screening of Moulin Rouge.

But it's not based on real life in 1912. It's a completely fictional alternate universe based on the steampunk aesthetics and subculture. It's entirely reasonable to use how people depict themselves and their works of art in that arena as a reference.

How is covering up her massive cleavage the same as saying she should be an ugly, fat bastard. Really, there's also just.. a difference in how massive her cleavage can be. I feel like you're equating us with prudes, which is pretty fucking annoying. I'm not going "my, oh, my.. look at all them blasphemous teets.. they are simply too big! why does this girl not look like my granny?!"

I think you're taking this too personally. I'm expressing my opinion concerning the matter at hand, not you.

I just wish Ken Levine and Co. had just the tiniest bit of restraint, maybe showing us a tiny bit less cleavage, and not plaster it all over every fucking screenshot, especially when they otherwise put a lot of work into making her a pretty good character.

I agree that it's a secondary issue to the roles females play in games, but that doesn't make it any less of an issue that when a game is as smart as Bioshock Infinite is about most things, they still go ahead and pander to the lowest common denominator when designing their women.

Is it really playing to the lowest common denominator to depict a woman with prominent breasts? What's so wrong with it? So long as the character is a solid, well-written one it doesn't really matter what they look like. Elena from Uncharted would still be the same brilliant character even if she dressed more like, say, her in-game rival Chloe. And on that note, Chloe is blatantly a more sexualised character but it totally works because she's such a strongly-written one.

For example, so far everyone's been assuming Elizabeth is designed the way she is just for kicks. When I see her, I see someone who's undeniably dressed a little prostitute-esque. This makes me think she's probably there against her will and has recently been taken out of that situation, which fits exactly into what little about the story I know. What's to say she won't change outfit later on? Why is everyone assuming Irrational didn't think about why they were dressing her the way they did and that it's purely a cheap opportunity to show some breast? Maybe they're trying to say something about the character or their backstory with it, or trying to coerce assumptions out of people in preparation for some kind of twist? I don't know because I haven't played the damn thing.

EDIT: Also, there are loads of ugly leading men in films. They're not the majority, sure, but a long time ago Hollywood realised that men also wanted to see men that looked like themselves in leading roles. Old, ugly, fat men.

That's true, but the general rule is people like to see attractive people in their fiction. I've even come across women slating actresses because they're not pretty enough, etc and they feel it takes away from the role somehow. Like Catwoman in The Dark Knight Rises, I saw girls on Facebook expressing disappointment because she wasn't as hot and sexualised as the one from Burton's take on the character. Although I personally enjoyed a bit of Anne Hathaway. :tup:

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You're right, your steampunk friends are actually probably a good reference for the style this game is going for. I still think there's room for developers referencing other stuff than today's popular culture image of these eras. I lashed onto your comment and took it at the same face value as Twig's "women I see on my way to work dress worse than that" comment, which I still think is completely irrelevant to how Elizabeth should be depicted.

Irrational can do whatever they want, and yeah.. If they're actually trying to say something with her fashion, that'd be great. I somehow doubt they are, but I'll be happy to be proved wrong on that!

So yep, I agree with you. If there's actual context for her sexualization, then I'd maybe sort of be fine with. I'm still sick to death of sexualization of women in games, because there isn't just some of it, but an overwhelming amount of it. I just think there's a range of female characters that could/should be represented in games and that still doesn't mean anyone has to be ugly. Films already do this pretty well. Some (a lot) do it badly, but there's a much better balance in terms of interesting female characters that don't dress like prostitutes for no reason.

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If objectification of women is such a fixture in our culture that some women internalized it and demand it, that doesn't make said objectification OK, it underlines the need to fix it.

If some woman happens to think a particular case of objectification is OK, that doesn't let anyone off the hook. Women obviously know what it feels like to be the target of constant objectification in a way we men cannot really fathom, and thus can have more insight to offer the discussion. However, no single woman (or man) determines what is acceptable and what is not. It's up for debate and, well, I like to believe that the best arguments will prevail.

Eventually, people will be informed enough to make noise in these situations. Levine, for example, seems to care about what people say about Elizabeth. He probably doesn't like to have her portrayal described as overly sexualized. Once he understands why that is, he might want to avoid similar problems in the future. That, or decide to abandon his cred as one of the more sophisticated game designers, which I doubt would happen.

Of course some content creators knowingly pander to the lowest common denominator. Can't be helped, really. But we can at least affect the people who care about what they are making and how it's seen. So when a company claims it's making a grown up game with fully developed characters, we won't have to spend a portion of playing time counting the polygons on female characters' butts.

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I agree entirely with what brkl says, and I wish I could formulate my opinion as well as he does.

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If objectification of women is such a fixture in our culture that some women internalized it and demand it, that doesn't make said objectification OK, it underlines the need to fix it.

This here is why discussions like this are so complicated. Yes, real life women will sometimes dress in an attractive way, for a number of different reasons. It's ok to want to feel attractive! A problem comes up, however, when women see how they're portrayed in most mainstream media, and feel the need to mimic that appearance or attitude because it's what society is telling them the 'norm' is.

Of course, I'm not trying to sit here and argue that all women should dress like nuns as a way to fight the patriarchy, which is why conversations like this are extremely difficult to have. I don't want to tell other women how to dress or act, but I think it's important that they seriously asks themselves 'why do I feel compelled to dress or act this way? Am I doing it for myself or for others?'

Speaking out against the character design of someone in a low-cut dress doesn't mean that I think all characters in games should be modestly dressed. Looking sexy is fine! It just starts becoming a problem when it's literally the only depiction of women that is available.

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