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Deus Ex 3

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I generally feel that if you want a game to be designed for meaningful choices and freedom of those choices, you have to accept that you can wedge yourself into scenarios you are not suited for, and that there is some responsibility on the player to be aware of that and therefore prepared for such eventualities.

If the game is designed such that ANY solution is viable for ANY situation, it cheapens ALL of the choices you can make.

I mean, also not arguing for the bosses in Human Revolution, i still think they're probably the worst part of the game, and the above argument certainly doesn't really justify how they're implemented, but... I don't know... video games.

I guess the argument to make is that those bosses are kind of just the occasional result of that style of mentality in game design. At some point somebody lost sight of the objective and the choices narrowed down and the solutions became few, it probably did not even really occur to those guys that they would be such a roadblock for so many people.

From the perspective of the gamer, i think it's something to accept and take as part of the bad that comes with the good.

Edited by Sno

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I dont really care if there are bosses in the game, my biggest gripe is that the design around them fucking sucked. Since the last game I played with bosses that I can remember is Zelda, I'll use it as a comparison. There i found the hook of the boss battle and the method of winning... it was challenging and fun.

In Deus Ex, I never saw the hook and even when I did, it was poorly executed. It wasn't challenging or fun.

But anyway, I said my peice with it, because it was annoying, but a small part of the game. My biggest gripe was the overall pace and narration handling near the end, but I am positive about this entry and hope for more with polish.

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Muddy is absolutely right. What everyone else described is inherently bad game design. If the player can make decisions that force them to have to restart or replay areas that they've successfully completed in order to progress, that is the very definition of poor game design. (Although we tolerated things like that in the 80s, I think games have long since moved past that.)

Imagine if you were playing an RPG and you decided to be a wizard, then at one point in the game you couldn't progress because you needed to be a barbarian to defeat someone. You'd think, "Why did you let me play as a wizard if I can't complete the game?" It reminds me of InfoCom or Sierra adventure games.

Note: I haven't played this game, I'm just going entirely from people's descriptions, so forgive me if Deus Ex is different.

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I still haven't finished the game, but I think I've almost got 75% of all augmentations. Is it possible to get everything? That would be quite lame.

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I still haven't finished the game, but I think I've almost got 75% of all augmentations. Is it possible to get everything? That would be quite lame.

No, but you can get a lot of them.

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Imagine if you were playing an RPG and you decided to be a wizard, then at one point in the game you couldn't progress because you needed to be a barbarian to defeat someone. You'd think, "Why did you let me play as a wizard if I can't complete the game?" It reminds me of InfoCom or Sierra adventure games.

That almost exactly describes my experience with Neverwinter Nights. I almost always play some sort of spellcaster in fantasy RPG's, and both NWN 1 & 2 end up locking you in a small room with a final boss that almost requires you to be some sort of heavy combat class. NWN 2 goes even further and completely removes all your party members so that you can't depend on them to help you.

I haven't had any real problems with boss difficulty in DXHR (even with being customized towards stealth and hacking), I just don't like how out-of-place they are with the rest of the game's structure.

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I still haven't finished the game, but I think I've almost got 75% of all augmentations. Is it possible to get everything? That would be quite lame.

When i finished it the second time i was maybe seven points shy of having everything.

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Muddy is absolutely right. What everyone else described is inherently bad game design. If the player can make decisions that force them to have to restart or replay areas that they've successfully completed in order to progress, that is the very definition of poor game design. (Although we tolerated things like that in the 80s, I think games have long since moved past that.)

Imagine if you were playing an RPG and you decided to be a wizard, then at one point in the game you couldn't progress because you needed to be a barbarian to defeat someone. You'd think, "Why did you let me play as a wizard if I can't complete the game?" It reminds me of InfoCom or Sierra adventure games.

Note: I haven't played this game, I'm just going entirely from people's descriptions, so forgive me if Deus Ex is different.

This is not a fail state we're talking about, the actual boss arenas are littered with everything you need to win. I believe it's more the matter of having to quickly adapt your play style to the specific run and gun tactics you need to beat them, that seems to be the real hurdle people are having.

The game is just intermittently throwing the stealth path under the bus, possibly forcing you to come to grips with the combat mechanics under the most unideal conditions. (Unideal = Being unspecced for combat. They're easy if you're combat specced, hard if you're not, but possible either way. Jensen doesn't start out like JC in the original game, he starts out as an already capable fighter and gets stronger.)

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This is not a fail state we're talking about, the actual boss arenas are littered with everything you need to win. I believe it's more the matter of having to quickly adapt your play style to the specific run and gun tactics you need to beat them, that seems to be the real hurdle people are having.

Uh... sure? As I said, though I was not specced for combat, I had a crazily upgraded combat rifle going into the first boss fight because I knew it was coming up. Using the cover system to its full advantage, taking only headshots, and using a heavily upgraded gun, I died over and over for an hour. It was only when I confused the AI into trying to find me somewhere I wasn't that I was able to beat the first boss. The second boss was whatever, and then the third had to be defeated by exploiting an AI glitch. If, as you say, Jensen starts out as a competent combat dude, I should have been able to get through handily using the guns that I had reserved for these situations. In fact, most of my inventory was needlessly taken up by guns that I was saving only for boss fights. This is not good design.

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Uh... sure? As I said, though I was not specced for combat, I had a crazily upgraded combat rifle going into the first boss fight because I knew it was coming up. Using the cover system to its full advantage, taking only headshots, and using a heavily upgraded gun, I died over and over for an hour. It was only when I confused the AI into trying to find me somewhere I wasn't that I was able to beat the first boss. The second boss was whatever, and then the third had to be defeated by exploiting an AI glitch. If, as you say, Jensen starts out as a competent combat dude, I should have been able to get through handily using the guns that I had reserved for these situations. In fact, most of my inventory was needlessly taken up by guns that I was saving only for boss fights. This is not good design.

Ok, but what about a lot of people ending up in the same scenario and having had no problems with that fight? My first time through that boss fight was with a stealth build, an upgraded pistol, and an untouched combat rifle. I had almost no ammo, and maybe two health items. I was clearly unprepared for a boss fight.

I mean, so what was so different for you that made it such an unworkable situation?

Well, you've outright said that you didn't take advantage of all the tools that were made available to you, and that you didn't feel you should have to.

I mean... whatever...

I feel like any point i try to make will be dismissed by "Well they're still terrible boss fights, so fuck the game." This is a poor topic for me to try and make this argument around, so i give up.

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I think you're dismissing me pretty quickly there. As I said, I did end up exploiting the barrels in order to finally beat him. The thing is, it still took me far too long after figuring out that I should be throwing barrels at him for that method to work. About half an hour into my hour of retries, I started trying to run around the environment, hiding behind pillars, grabbing barrels, and throwing them at him. Half the time I would get shot up sprinting to a pillar or barrel, the other half he would blow up the barrel while I was holding it, killing me. Even using the environment properly and using my sprint capabilities to their full, I was getting slaughtered constantly. It was only a lucky throw of an EMP grenade (my only grenade or mine) disorienting him that finally allowed me to get the upper hand. If I hadn't had that, I probably would have given up on the game right there.

I actually agree with you that games (especially ones like this) should have consequences for the way you spec your character, but there should still be an out. There should be a vent in the side that I can use to sneak around him and get behind for a few potshots during the fight or something. If I'm able to turn invisible and run silently, I should at least have the chance to sneak up on him within their arena. In that respect, the third boss is much better designed because I could get around corners, jump over those walls, and generally duck away from his line of sight without having to break the AI. He was still fucking rough, but that's ok. It was a rough that you could handle, and a rough that the environment allowed stealth players to be ok with after a couple of tries.

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I haven't progressed in Human Revolution in two weeks (or even visited Idle Thumbs) because I'm stuck.

I got to a point where

a certain character dies unless you neutralize many enemies quickly. Since I am playing no-kills this is very difficult. I have spent weeks replaying the same two minutes of this game over and over. I try different routes, I give up and start murdering, but nothing helps. The character always dies.

This is a valid story twist, but it leaves me so exhausted and disgusted that I can't bear to go on. I really don't know if I'll finish this game.

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I haven't progressed in Human Revolution in two weeks (or even visited Idle Thumbs) because I'm stuck.

I got to a point where

a certain character dies unless you neutralize many enemies quickly. Since I am playing no-kills this is very difficult. I have spent weeks replaying the same two minutes of this game over and over. I try different routes, I give up and start murdering, but nothing helps. The character always dies.

This is a valid story twist, but it leaves me so exhausted and disgusted that I can't bear to go on. I really don't know if I'll finish this game.

I left that bit alone - didn't even realise you could do anything to change it until way afterwards.

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I haven't progressed in Human Revolution in two weeks (or even visited Idle Thumbs) because I'm stuck.

Do you have enough tranq darts? It took me 5 or more attempts, and I tried non-lethal and lethal, but tranq rifle was what finally got me through that. Try taking out more damage causing guys first.

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So you can save her? I tried to do it a couple of times, but failed every time, so I simply continued. It felt to me she was destined to die. One time I killed a lot of enemies and then they brought in a robots. I think it's impossible to save her.

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Ha. I actually freaked out at that point and went Rambo. I figured that I had lost the no-kills achievement thanks to the tutorial anyway, so I could make the exception. I still tranquilized three or four of them, but if I had to kill to save her I didn't flinch. She survived, and I was proud of myself.

Still took a good number of do-overs though.

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Saved her on both playthroughs, go after the heavies and the mech first. The other enemies don't really do enough damage to the VTOL to be a threat. I didn't non-lethal it, but if you're trying for that, i'd assume you'd probably still want to do the same thing, bring down the heavies first.

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Hmm...

So it's the gas bomb from the first mission all over again. I didn't know I could save them[/spoilers]

If you don't save her, you'll find her dead on an operating table later in the game. But for some very odd reason Adam doesn't say anything when he sees here

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I feel that game design is the last thing you'd want to outsource? Seeing as it is one of the most essential parts of a game. I can't imagine what thinking was behind this.

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"and it's one of the cleanest, best pieces of technology I've ever built."

I fear to see what else he made

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I'm pretty sure they outsourced game design stuff to tech guys. I'm also pretty sure this was filmed before the reviews actually rolled out...

I can't imagine what thinking was behind this.

Probably a time and limited resources thing. Who knows. o_O

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In my experience a lot of things get outsourced, not just assets(like character, weapons, boxes, etc..) but level designs/art, multiplayer modes, mini games, etc...

Since this guy is local, I have a feeling it was more of a friend connection; like he knew the exec producer or something and they threw him a bone. For something like this I doubt they saved any money on it, because contractors are freaking expensive.

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Okay, quick question. So I just got tricked by a lady, and a bunch of soldiers just entered the room. To get the achievements I'm going for, I apparently have to cross this big, open room without:

  1. Setting off any alarms, or
  2. killing any of the guys

Is there a way of doing this without just murdering anyone? Oh, and the alarm is already sounding, but I guess that doesn't really count.

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