Shogun 2: Total War

[Squid Division]

Creative Assembly has apparently announced Shogun 2 Total War: From RPS.

As a huge total war fan, I'm not super excited since I'm pretty much assured to buy it regardless, but it's not an area of a huge amount of interest for me. Maybe it will finally spur me to finish Musashi in preparation. While there aren't many total war fans here, I figured it might piqué the interest of some Japanophiles (Nippophiles?) here.

[Murdoc]

Honestly I haven't played a total war game since Shogun. I know they have gotten good, but the themes in Shogun just seemed to fit so perfectly.

From the description though I'm a little wary as to how it'll play out and all the improvements from the other games that may be incorperated into this that I just don't understand yet (naval battles? wtf)

But yeah, as a Shogun: total war fan, I'm excited but caustiously optomistic as I'm pretty sure the series is completely different then now.

[DanJW]

The past few months I have been watching the DVD of the 1980 TV series Shogun, based on the story of William Adams the first Briton to reach Japan and the first Gaijin Samurai. It's really good! In a classic slow-paced 1970s kind of way. Watching that definitely puts me in the mood for some Japanese Total War.

[brkl]

Feels a bit like retreading old ground though. Why not go to China or any other scenario they haven't approached yet?

[Nappi]

I own almost all Total War games except for Shogun and all of the expansions. I'm somewhat looking forward to this game, although the Japanese setting is a bit foreign to me. I know some people have been hoping for a new Shogun: Total War for a long time, though.

I played shitload of Medieval and Rome Total Wars, but I have barely touched Medieval II or Empire. It seemed to me that in Empire: Total War (at least) you basically had no chances of completing the campaign if you auto-resolved* all the battles (the way I played Medieval and Rome all the time). Or at least there a lot more casualties than there would be if you had played the battle yourself. I just find the real time battles slow and boring. It is a shame, because the turn based section of Empire: Total War seemed very interesting. So, I hope they fix that for the new game.

*I don't want to derail this thread but does anyone know if there is a simple mod to make auto-resolving a bit more effective?

[miffy495]

It seemed to me that in Empire: Total War (at least) you basically had no chances of completing the campaign if you auto-resolved* all the battles (the way I played Medieval and Rome all the time). Or at least there a lot more casualties than there would be if you had played the battle yourself.

As I understand it, and from my experience, every Total War game has played this way. It's not unique to Empire, and I actually remember it being particularly obvious in Rome.

[Nappi]

Yes, that may be true. I was still able to complete the campaign in Rome and first Medieval using auto resolve all the time. Felt a lot harder in Empire: Total War.

[Murdoc]

Yes, that may be true. I was still able to complete the campaign in Rome and first Medieval using auto resolve all the time. Felt a lot harder in Empire: Total War.

As someone who has only played Shogun I'm really baffeled.

If you auto resolve the battles; what are you playing? Which battles to chose first to auto-resolve? then I think pressing a buttont o upgrade far land?

Totally perplexed, hehe.

[Nappi]

Not sure if I got your question, but I play Total War games mostly for the turn based strategy part. It's awesome.

[Murdoc]

I'm probably going assume that the turn based strategy part in the new versions are way more fleshed out then in the original Shogun because based on my knowledge only from that I'm just confused.

[Roderick]

Just like Dan, I've just finished Shogun, albeit in bookform, which was terrific. I'm a little vexed about the Total War series though. It seems like an entirely too complex thing for me. Is it the sort of thing that has gotten so complicated that it's impossible to enter?

Otherwise, the Japanese setting sound really cool.

[Squid Division]

The total war series is probably to the point of being way too complicated if you try to jump in all at once. However, what I did when I first got into the series was to learn the grand campaign (the turn based part) using auto resolve, and then slowly break into the RTS part. You can do that on the later games by setting the campaign difficulty higher and lowering the battle difficulty. I believe this affects the autoresolves. Empire has a pretty in depth tutorial mode based on the American War of Independence, so that might be a way to go.

[Marek]

Napoleon also has a really good tutorial that follows the life of Napoleon as be moves around Europe. You get a bit of history and context while learning the basics of the game. It's one of my favorite tutorials in a long time.

BTW Shogun 2 will be amazing (and I'm not just saying that because I work at SEGA )

[Squid Division]

True, but Napoleon is a considerably more difficult game due to the better battle AI and more difficult auto resolves. It's a better total war than Empire, but it's probably not the best place to start slowly.

I'm holding you to Shogun being good.

[Marek]

Ah yes you may be right. Although I personally find Napoleon's campaign to be very focused whereas in Empire you might have your forces divided across the globe - grander scale but potentially more overwhelming as well (unless you play as Sweden or something).

[Squid Division]

Ok so I thought I'd do a little write up of the Shogun 2 campaign I'm doing at the moment. My idea is that, like EVE Online, people like the theory of the Total War games, but find them too difficult to get into or simply not their style of game. Let me know if the accompanying pictures are too big, or if this is simply a dumb idea.

----------------------

• Starting Off
  

First to pick a clan. The last game I played was with the Date, at the very north of Japan. In that campaign, I got cut off from most of the other factions geographically, so by the time I got to Kyoto in the late game, there were about 5 other factions left, all of them at war with me. I wanted to start closer to Kyoto and the other numerous factions. I chose the Chosokabe Faction.

The dark green is my starting province. Playing as the Chosokabe gives me a lot of advantages:

• Protection - I'm on an island
  
• Isolation - there are only 3 other factions on my island
  
• Money - Proximity to trade routes
  
• Gunpowder - Proximity to the trade routes gives me access to Christianity and the accompanying muskets, cannons, and sailing ships (the best ships in the game)
  
• Shogunate - I'm very close to Kyoto, which if I hold for 4 turns, means I become the new Shogun
  
• Bows - The Chosokabe specialize in bows, which decimate the enemy's morale (unbelievably important in this game)
  

I chose Normal difficulty despite being a Total War veteran because Hard and above are apparently broken(ly difficult) at the moment. Short campaign because I'd like to actually finish it. A long campaign requires you conquer 40-45 provinces instead of 25.

----------------------

• Conquering Begins
  

I had set goals as the campaign began:

• Take over my island of Shikoku.
  
• Take the trade routes early. This means the other clans can't have it, and that I have a very large comparative income without having to conquer.
  
• Get a good ninja assassin early. Ninjas are spies and assassins. They can also sabotage buildings and open gates for besieging armies. However, because morale is so important, killing the enemy's generals before the battle even starts is a huge advantage and the best use of a ninja.
  
• Katana Samurai and bows instead of spears. The AI (and players online) use a lot of Yari Ashigaru, which is spear peasantry. Spears are weak to swords and peasants have no morale, so hardened Katana Samurai and bow armies can defeat vastly larger armies.
  
• Take the Shogunate early. You get big economic bonuses and some unique units for becoming Shogun. I want these early when you can attack Kyoto without having the entirety of Japan at war with you.
  
• Technology - Since Empire, the Total War series has had a technology tree that opens up better buildings which in turn open up better units. They also increase your income and agents' (ninjas, monks, metsukes [thugs]) effectiveness.
  
• Convert to Christianity early. This gives me a huge firepower advantage and the best ships. It is extremely dangerous to do if you're not prepared, however. The unrest caused by converting means it's only a good idea once you're secure.
  

The campaign began with suppressing a revolt. For some reason as soon as you start the game, you have a revolt outside your city. I then moved up to the north-west of the island [for some reason Shogun orients the map more or less east-west, so I'm treating that as if it was the correct way for simplicity] and took the Koku's only city, eliminating them. There a built a sword dojo to give me access to Katana Samurai. Each of these units takes two turns to recruit, so I sat back for a bit and started taking trade ports. Once I had a good force of samurai katana and samurai bowmen, I attacked the Sogo in the north-east.

My trade partners and third inhabitants of the island, the Miyoshi, apparently had the same idea. Luckily, with the city under siege, they couldn't take it out from under me. I sat back and waited until they had to sally and attack me so I wouldn't have to attempt to take a castle. Since the Miyoshi were also at war with the Sogo they would be reinforcing me in the battle. However, you can see that I was still outnumbered by almost 800 men. Time for these samurai to prove their worth.

Great, it's raining and flat. Since they're attacking, I can actually sit back and defend, but alas no hill to use.

I put my bowmen out front to engage the enemy bowmen and spearmen before they get to mine. His formation is a bit wider than mine, and it looks like he's trying to flank with some spearmen. I send some katana samurai to deal with them and push up the middle with others. This means that I can easily win on the flanks (swordsmen vs. spearmen, nobles vs. peasants) and break them up the middle where they're trying to win with superior numbers. Meanwhile my archers sit back and lob arrows into the mobs (friendly fire is an unfortunate side effect) and at enemy archers. My generals sit back and provide morale support to keep the few peasant spearmen I have from routing. In the distance you can see the Miyoshi coming in. They hang back though, no point in them getting involved in the battle when they can let me waste my own troops.

The battle goes to plan, and they eventually have to send in their general to inspire their men. Unfortunately they send them into the middle of the field, where I'm able to bring over some spearmen (look at all the lances around the cavalry).

Well, it was a bloody battle, but I won.

Just one faction and its two provinces left - the Miyoshi. I've got a ninja now and he's going to down on their generals and family members.

In the intervening time, I build a sword dojo in my newest province so I can replenish my army and fill out my army into a full stack of samurai. Finally, I cancel my trade agreement and declare war (after my ninja relieves them of several generals, sons, and injures the heir and daimyo). Once again, I besiege until they have to attack me to avoid starvation. No generals, but they do have some light cavalry. I don't have any yet, so I'll have to keep an eye on them and hope I can get my spearmen into position before they slaughter my bowmen.

Alright! Now this is a favorable position. I'm on a hill and they have to come down out of the hills and cross a plain before they get to me. My men can charge down hill into theirs and my archers will have nice clear shots.

The battle goes rather poorly initially. They outright charge, which is fairly rare, instead of exchanging arrows first. Since I wasn't paying attention to this, they snagged a few of my archer regiments with their spearmen. I was able to pull them back up the hill after samurai engaged to relieve them. Then the cavalry arrived. They came along the flanks hidden in the trees. I was just able to pull my spearmen off the front line to get them to the flanks. On the right it was very close, but I snagged them and defeated their lightly armored horsemen handily (the muskets helped a little too). On the right flank they ran straight into my hidden Yari Samurai (yari meaning spearmen and samurai meaning knights vs. ashigaru being peasants). With their cavalry slaughtered and katana samurai bearing down on them, their entire army routed, with many of them not even having engaged. What followed was a slaughter. My generals ran down their bowmen (by far the most dangerous units when facing a castle - I still have 1 more province to take remember).

My samurai have proven their worth. They've annihilated significantly bigger armies of ashigaru peasants. As an added bonus, because I've decided to spend the money early for a good army, these units are gaining experience, meaning I could be marching into Kyoto very soon with a veteran army. My general is already a four star general! I was even able to steal a trade route from the Miyoshi.

And a turn later I am ruler of all Shikoku. Time to consolidate, replenish my army, establish farms and roads, get some cav, convert to Christianity, suppress the inevitable Buddhist revolts, build a navy of caravels, and make a push for Kyoto.

----------------------

Ok, that's it for the moment. Questions, suggestions, complaints?

[Orv]

:tup:

Keep 'em coming!

[Squid Division]

• Consolidation
  

With the army firmly in my hands, it's time to risk it to rebels. First it's time to look at the family tree. The Chosokabe are a little thin in this area. However, you might have noticed a second general in my main army. He's the supply specialist for my nation and gives a replenishment bonus to the army he's in. Because he's so valuable and because he's been with the daimyo since the beginning and because there is only one son to be heir (and he's being used as a diplomatic hostage to my new allies, the Shimazu) - it's time to adopt him!

Finally, it's time to convert.

I got to work on building the caravels to get them in the water ASAP. My spy also landed and made his short way to Kyoto to scout and kill some Ashigara Shogunate family members and generals.

My subordinates are getting a little grumpy. I could have made him commit seppuku for the dishonor of even making me have to deal with this bullshit, but he could flee to my enemies. I went ahead and paid him.

Luckily my ninja is still loyal and brutally efficient - he's leveled up! Here's a look at the skill tree that agents and generals have (each tree is unique to the type of unit but they all look about like this).

Just look at all those wonderfully boosted stats. He's kicking some Shogunate ass.

That governor was just the beginning, the Buddhists have revolted in protest of my recent Christianization. They are promptly brutally slaughtered for doubting the daimyo.

But, just to make sure I'm not further inconvienced, I decide to lower taxes to boost happiness and lower the chance of rebellion. Notice that I'm still making a good amount of money and have a large amount of savings in case things get crazy.

And so it begins. My first Nanban (aka barbarian aka white people) ship is in the water with ten magnificent cannons and 320 marines armed with muskets.

Not only that, but I also got some cannons for sieging Kyoto.

• The Offensive
  

The Shogun has taken a liking to me apparently, and wants me to do some of his dirty work. I have no relations with the Takeda and feel no need to attack them. The Chosokabe obey no man and this demand is sufficient for a declaration of war on the Shogun.

Well...not that Shogun, he's dead. But the next one, I'll declare war on him!

Boots on the ground. My army is consisted of veterans from the unification of Shikoku, new Yari Samurai to deal with cavalry, heavy Katana Cavalry to smash opposing light cavalry and rout enemy archers after a flanking maneuver. Fortunately a province rebelled across the straights, so I could land in their province without declaring war on the Hattori (who own the rest of the coastline and are allied with the Shogunate). Unfortunately, I was marching into a giant Hattori army and a formidable enemy in Kyoto.

And the Black Ship appears. A Spanish Galleon with 24 guns (my invincible caravels only have 10). It's hard to catch, but I'm counting on being able to cut if off at the straights of Honshu and Kyushu. However, this means leaving my army with no way off Honshu with two large enemy armies in front of it.

Because of this I get my recently recruited caravel up to replace the two that left to hunt the Black Ship. I then declare war on the Shogunate; the Hattori of course come to their aide. They then decide to attempt to ambush my safety fleet of one ship. I'm woefully outnumbered and the balance-of-power bar has me losing horribly.

---------------------------

There's apparently a 15 picture limit per post, so I'll go ahead and leave this here for the moment. Please go ahead and leave a message if you read/liked it so I know I'm not just talking to myself.

[Roderick]

Awesome! Not playing it myself, but it looks really atmospheric. I love the emphasis on diplomacy and strategy, rather than battles.

[Nappi]

Awesome posts Squid Division! Got me excited about the game.

Have you tried auto resolving any of the battles, by the way? Are the results more fair than in the previous games? (See my post above.)

[Gwardinen]

Loving the posts, I used to write and read battle reports for tabletop wargaming (specifically Warhammer and 40k) and this reminds me of how much I enjoyed seeing people's stories play out. Like Nappi, it's also made me excited about Shogun 2, and I'm seriously considering trying to get it, despite its somewhat lacklustre performance on my machine.

The desire is mainly due to the fact that I really, really want to do a cooperative campaign with some Thumbs. Co-op campaign multiplayer is something I've always wanted from Total War.

[Hermie]

This is great, I love reading stuff like this, and you write it so that even people with only a casual interest in the game gets drawn in.

[Squid Division]

Awesome posts Squid Division! Got me excited about the game.

Have you tried auto resolving any of the battles, by the way? Are the results more fair than in the previous games? (See my post above.)

Except for the naval battles with cannon ships (you'll see in my next post), yes, completely. On normal at least. There's much less coin flipping to the auto resolves. It also means that unlike other games where if you had a 51% chance to win you could pull out an upset and decisively win, now you'll get a Pyrrhic victory for that battle like every time. But a vast improvement from previous titles are the casualties you'll take from small armies. No more arbitrarily losing a bunch of men manning your artillery because it takes a percentage from each unit, it now seems to calculate losses based on it's own strategy. This means that you can face a somewhat sizeable army of 700 or so and come away with no losses if you have enough bowmen.

[bd_monkey]

Well I am realy enjoying this game. This is the forth Total War game I've played. I skipped empire. I realy love the new map. It gives weight everything you. You fell like every move is important. So far I'm loving it. But I could use some clearing up on what some of the agents do. I get the ninja, but I would like some explanations on how can I use the other guys to the fullest.

[Murdoc]

Haven't been able to get deep into this (school) and it's my second Total War games since the first Shogun... it's a lot more complicated, hehe. Still, it feels like it's retained it's feel and everything, I just feel a bit lost in a lot of it right now and seems a lot more difficult.

The Castle assaults are appreciated and super cool, it reminds me of this old flash game where four or eight players get a castle and you have to assault it, even using ninjas to open the gate and stuff is similar.