Jump to content
gdf

Plug your shit

Recommended Posts

I love how my points are being ignored. Is anyone able to point out where I'm wrong?

Tycho? You keep repeating your main argument, but you've ignored my definition.

Nach, "Gameplay" was commonly used by gaming magazines in the 80s, not the 90s.

Next up: Defining "Playability"!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel silly saying "gameplay" in casual conversation, as much as I would saying "I really liked the story and cinematography in Looper, but felt that The Matrix had superior filmwatch".

Yeah I never do that, I always say 'game' whether I'm referring to an arcade experience or something like Journey. Of course I'm not even entirely sure what this crazy argument is about and am just interjecting a few more waves into the sea. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a rather silly point, guys. Games offer something that books, films, TV, music, don't. That something is common to ALL games, and needs a word to describe it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love how my points are being ignored. Is anyone able to point out where I'm wrong?

Tycho? You keep repeating your main argument, but you've ignored my definition.

Nach, "Gameplay" was commonly used by gaming magazines in the 80s, not the 90s.

Next up: Defining "Playability"!

Gameplay doesn't seem to me to be a rush you get from overcoming a challenge because I think you could remove all hedonic aspects of gameplay and still have whatever gameplay is. You could get zero rush from something and still be playing it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gameplay doesn't seem to me to be a rush you get from overcoming a challenge because I think you could remove all hedonic aspects of gameplay and still have whatever gameplay is. You could get zero rush from something and still be playing it.

That's difference between good gameplay and bad gameplay, as I already described when I talked about Thirty Flights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a vast mischaracterization of the article I linked and the position I've been pushing, I think, and it's not super charitable to Twig. Labeling our debate as a piece of "tl;dr" and linking it to Sokol suggests an anti-intellectual "let's just stop thinking about things because the bigs words you're all using are just a smokescreen for bullshit" sort of position. Just because we're trying to talk about video games in a manner more sophisticated than "holy shit did you see me chainsaw that alien in half" doesn't mean we're accusing each other of bullshit for bullshit's sake. We're all trying to figure things out - I'm just suggesting that existing vocabulary is unsuited to the task.

Remind me not to reply on the iPhone, I tend not to bother make sure I said what I meant when my screen's too small to proofread at a glance.

What I was thinking and wanted to say was that the plethora of vague and sometimes contradictory terms reminds me of 20th century liberal arts intellectualism. Not necessarily that that's what you guys are doing, but that the state of game academia is fertile ground for that sort of nonesense.

And by tl;dr all I meant was, I don't know what exactly you guys are talking about, I'm not interested in reading all the paragraphs of discussion, so I dunno if what I was saying is relevant.

Like I said, remind me not to try and reply on the iPhone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's difference between good gameplay and bad gameplay, as I already described when I talked about Thirty Flights.

So good gameplay is gameplay that gives you a rush when you overcome the challenge, whereas bad gameplay is something that doesn't give you a rush when you overcome a challenge? But gameplay itself is overcoming challenges? Surely that's underdescribed and overinclusive. We overcome lots of challenges that aren't games. People who managed to keep their house from flooding during Hurricane Sandy by stacking up a bunch of sandbags weren't playing a game.

It sounds like you're heading in the direction Bernard Suits went when he described what games are. That's fine. You could then describe gameplay as "what you do when you play a game." I hope you see why someone might think that this term is less than helpful when it comes to game criticism. It is about as useful as La Cabra's term "filmwatch" which describes what you do when you watch a movie. Yes, your definition works just fine, but it tells us nothing for us to label something as "gameplay" or "filmwatch." We need to describe what it MEANS for gameplay or filmwatch to be of a certain kind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
but again we can ignore semantics if you find the issue boring.

Sorry, I was responding only to vimes. I wasn't trying to be a passive aggressive fuck. I apologize, completely legitimately!

Boring doesn't mean unnecessary, unfortunately. I agree that it's important to have a solid foundation for discussion. I just disagree with your assertion that we lack that right now. We can always use more stone beneath our feet, but there's more than enough language and consensus on these things that we should be able to talk about them without getting upset about a little vagueness here and there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So good gameplay is gameplay that gives you a rush when you overcome the challenge, whereas bad gameplay is something that doesn't give you a rush when you overcome a challenge? But gameplay itself is overcoming challenges?

Well, I already explained the difference here:

If the challenge is too simple (e.g. click here to win), it's boring. If it's too difficult (e.g. Paint a perfect copy of the Sistine Chapel with your mouse in 60 seconds), it's frustrating. If it's somewhere in between (e.g. Click the mouse to the beat of this song), it can start becoming enjoyable.

You have to acknowledge that there is a common element found amongst all games, yes? A common element that is not found in other media?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have to acknowledge that there is a common element found amongst all games, yes? A common element that is not found in other media?

Well, yes. There's also a common element found amongst all movies and television shows that other media lack. And there's a common element found amongst all books that other media lack. So what? I've already said elsewhere in this discussion that I have no problem treating gameplay as "the thing you do when you play a game." I just think that as a concept it's empty and useless for games criticism.

This whole thing started when I objected to Frenetic Pony's arguments along similar lines as the person who commented on the article - Frenetic Pony vastly oversimplified things by adverting to "gameplay" rather than actually describing the applicable features of the games in question, and in doing so rendered the argument invalid because the different things lumped under the single heading of "gameplay" were actually different enough to make Frenetic Pony's point incorrect. If you think your definition of gameplay solves Frenetic Pony's problem, then it's helpful. If you don't think your definition solves the problem, then I'm not sure what your point is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've skimmed over this discussion a little, but just for interest's sake: I always defined "gameplay" in my head as the mechanics of the game - what you have to do and how enjoyable that is. It is an admittedly broad term, that I associate with 16bit game reviews that had separate scores for Graphics, Sound and Gameplay. To me, rating the gameplay is rating whether you enjoy playing the game outside of all aesthetic/narrative concerns. But I guess these days people specify a little more rather than use the umbrella term - they'll refer to the mechanics, the platforming elements, the puzzles, the UI or the control scheme. I would probably say gameplay as a shorthand for that area in everyday nerd conversation.

I think the problem here is that FrenPon didn't give his definition of the word gameplay within the blog post; if he had, we'd be debating the central argument of his post, not what we all individually think the word means and whether it's helpful or not. Obviously it'd be great if all critical terms had the exact same meaning for everyone, but sometimes the critic needs to specify. I'm trying to think of an example, the best I can come up with right now is "classic" - which I usually take to mean "a work that is honored as definitive in its field" but could easily be discussed using a different definition.

As I want to keep this thread OT but don't have anything real to plug, check out this awesome film review comment I did a while back as StinkyLomax, defending a reviewer against some idiot fanboys:

http://www.totalfilm.com/reviews/cinema/the-expendables-2-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You've made me feel bad about pulling the thread off topic, which is quite an achievement, because it means you've made me feel bad for not ruthlessly promoting myself, which is a place I'd never thought I'd be. But in any case, I guess I do have some shit to plug. After making my X-COM tutorial I started playing through the game, so now I have an in-progress Let's Play of X-COM on YouTube which might be enjoyable for people who liked JP LeBreton's quick look at the original and wanted more, but not enough to play it, and also you have to enjoy me talking instead of JP which is a dubious proposition at best. I'm up to episode 6 but here is the first one which picks up where the tutorial left off:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have a soothing voice, TychoCelchuuu.

I wrote a short story. Like, really short, 1500 words in total. It's called The Butcher's Defense and if you want, you can read it here: http://starflux.livejournal.com/7798.html.

Pro tip: make you browser a little slimmer for a better reading experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Get your own thread, guys! This thread is for things that are shit and need plugging. :sombrero:

On that note, I realized my very old series of comics about the lives of home appliances and what not isn't available anywhere on the internets anymore. So I've started archiving them on tumblr, check it out: home-appliance.tumblr.com

In the end I hope to have started making new ones so that I can keep 'em coming when I've uploaded all the old ones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why haven't I seen those before? They're pretty funny. I like the wordless quality of the humor. That's tough to get across. At the end of every comic I have to pause for a second before I get the joke, which is pretty neat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you! They weren't exactly popular back then, which was around 2005, I think? And then when I lost some old domain it was on, they didn't exist on the internet anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I enjoyed your Let's Play, and Rodi is right, you have a soothing voice Tycho. Man, that brings so many memories back. I spent an entire summer disc swapping on an Amiga with XCOM, and can't believe how lucky you got in that UFO. Typically, if I surrounded a UFO door, an alien would pop out then my guys would fire a load of auto shots, miss, and take each other out :)

Anyway, the plugging of shit:

http://betterbokeh.co.uk/

That's a side project I started in August. It's not exactly raking in cash, but since launch it started paying for itself and a bit extra on top. There is a special link at the bottom to something I'm very mildly ashamed of, but it found an audience ¬¬

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dang, am I too late to chip in on the gameplay discussion?

I like Katie Salen and Somebody Zimmerman's framework for analyzing games in their book Rules of Play. In very broad strokes, games need to be analyzed in terms of rules, play and culture in order to get anything near a complete picture. It's a very holistic approach.

I don't remember what they say about 'gameplay', but for me it lands more on the Play side rather than the Rules. Mechanics would be part of the rules, but rules don't define the experience of playing a game.

For example, if we think of a game with the same Blink and climbing mechanics as Dishonored, but the level design was all corridors and high walls with no ledges, the gameplay would feel inferior and unsatisfactory even though the mechanics were the same. So that's my definition: the experience of interacting in the gameworld, not the rules and other trappings that make it possible.

Chess was mentioned earlier. The experience of playing a timed chess game is different even though the other mechanics are the same. I would say the gameplay is different. The addition of time pressure changes the game a lot more than simply making it shorter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Get your own thread, guys! This thread is for things that are shit and need plugging. :sombrero:

On that note, I realized my very old series of comics about the lives of home appliances and what not isn't available anywhere on the internets anymore. So I've started archiving them on tumblr, check it out: home-appliance.tumblr.com

In the end I hope to have started making new ones so that I can keep 'em coming when I've uploaded all the old ones.

Haha, these are pretty great! But I feel like even more of an idiot than I typically feel like because I don't get the joke in the toaster comic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The toaster is walking out of a swimming pool. Moments later an ambulance arrives. What could possibly have happened?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is my fault. It's not clear enough that it's a swimming pool. The only indication is a sign with squiggly lines and what maybe looks like a person..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×