Kolzig

The Witness by Jonathan Blow

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For some reason, I absolutely love the art style in this game. It reminds me of those architect pictures that depict how the building and its surroundings will look like when the work is complete. I think that this kind of completely artificial look might fit this sort of game really well.

Yeah, I hope they go down this stylized route as well.

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Eh? As far as indy games go, Braid was a huge success. Who are you calling nerd, nerd? :mock:
Huge success, yes. But it's only the nerds like you* who care about the fact that it was a success.

*and me :D

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On the one hand, I see why he has to make a statement like that, on the other... that dude is such a pretentious twat.

Also, I liked the maze puzzles.

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On the one hand, I see why he has to make a statement like that, on the other... that dude is such a pretentious twat.
Really? I didn't think he came off that pretentious in that particular post.

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Really? I didn't think he came off that pretentious in that particular post.

C'mon!

I am certainly not going to jump up and down and say “hey this game is better than Braid”, or even claim that Braid is good.

He doesn't want to claim that a widely-lauded, highly popular game of his making is good? Gimme a break. There is room for brutal introspection where you figure out what was broken and what wasn't up to your own expectations, but there is also a time for an honest survey of work done. At the end of the day this is such a bullshit thing to say.

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C'mon! He doesn't want to claim that a widely-lauded, highly popular game of his making is good? Gimme a break. There is room for brutal introspection where you figure out what was broken and what wasn't up to your own expectations, but there is also a time for an honest survey of work done. At the end of the day this is such a bullshit thing to say.

Sure, but this post probably defines the lower bound of his potential pretentiousness, as far as I'm concerned.

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I don't a lot about Johnathan Blow : why are some people expecting him to be a pretentious twat?

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He's a big games as art proponent, so he has his own ideas about that and such and such.

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I don't a lot about Johnathan Blow : why are some people expecting him to be a pretentious twat?

I think I know, but I just don't agree. How is having your own point of view pretentious?

Leave the poor guy alone! :zoid::edge:

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Ack. :( It has nothing to do with pretentiousness as it is commonly directed towards artists who try to make games (i.e., he is TRYING TO SAY A THING which makes him A STUPID ASSHOLE DOUCHEBAG PRETENTIOUS TWAT MONSTER FUCKER; he needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP, come to his senses and realize that GAMES ARE JUST SUPPOSED TO BE FUN, FUN FUN FUN FUNNITY FUN that will BLOW US AWAY in short order so that we can sell them back to Gamestop for a dollar). My complaint about his pretentiousness doesn't come from that direction, he is just assuming airs that conspicuously smack of false modesty when there is no grounds for that kind of shit. I get what he's saying, I do have faith in him, but give me a fucking break.

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Ack. :( It has nothing to do with pretentiousness as it is commonly directed towards artists who try to make games (i.e., he is TRYING TO SAY A THING which makes him A STUPID ASSHOLE DOUCHEBAG PRETENTIOUS TWAT MONSTER FUCKER; he needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP, come to his senses and realize that GAMES ARE JUST SUPPOSED TO BE FUN, FUN FUN FUN FUNNITY FUN that will BLOW US AWAY in short order so that we can sell them back to Gamestop for a dollar). My complaint about his pretentiousness doesn't come from that direction, he is just assuming airs that conspicuously smack of false modesty when there is no grounds for that kind of shit. I get what he's saying, I do have faith in him, but give me a fucking break.

I think you're reading a lot into that to see it as "false modesty". He's not saying that Braid isn't good either, he's just saying he doesn't want to get into that argument with the GAMES ARE JUST SUPPOSED TO BE FUN crowd who hated Braid.

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The guy is generally considered pretentious..... because that's how he comes across in interviews. Also, see: Braid. Wonderful, WONDERFUL game, but it's awfully pretentious.

I still respect him though, and cannot wait for The Witness :tup:

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The guy is generally considered pretentious..... because that's how he comes across in interviews.

Not to me. I just don't see it.

He's got some unique ideas on how to approach games as a medium, but it's people who don't have the substance to back up their image that come across to me as pretentious.

I think you're reading a lot into that to see it as "false modesty". He's not saying that Braid isn't good either, he's just saying he doesn't want to get into that argument with the GAMES ARE JUST SUPPOSED TO BE FUN crowd who hated Braid.

This.

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Not to me. I just don't see it.

He's got some unique ideas on how to approach games as a medium, but it's people who don't have the substance to back up their image that come across to me as pretentious.

This is the guy who said he couldn't possibly describe what Braid was about. It would be literally impossible for him to do so. The only way he could get across the message in Braid was to make Braid. A leeetle bit pretentious, there.

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This is probably what you're talking about:

When you see people trying to piece together the narrative of the game from the fragments you provided, is it tempting for you to just wade in and lay it all out for them?

Not really, because I would not be capable of doing that. The narrative in Braid is not being obscure just for obscurity's sake. It's that way because it was the only way I knew how to get at the central idea, which is something big and subtle and resists being looked at directly. If I were to make some kind of statement about what the game is about -- even a very long, elaborate and well-considered statement -- it would miss. It's like trying to clutch a handful of water very tightly; the water runs through your fingers and you end up with almost none. But if you cup an open hand, instead of clutching, you can hold a little more. And then if you don't try to contain the water at all, if you instead just point to where it is, you can point at a whole lake. Or at least a small river leading into the lake. Someday, far in the future, the ocean, maybe.

The reason I made Braid is because it was the only way to express those particular ideas. If I could write a 5-paragraph essay telling you what Braid is about, then why wouldn't I just write that essay and post it on my web page? Then I wouldn't have needed to spend 3 years making the game! That would have been a lot easier.

from

http://www.joystiq.com/2008/09/25/joystiq-interview-blow-unravels-braid-in-post-mortem/

I don't see what's wrong with what he says here. My problem with the games media seeming to have a consensus that Blow is pretentious is that I'm sure he actually reacts to that in a more negative way than the 'GAMES ARE JUST SUPPOSED TO BE FUN crowd' bollox.

I think guys like blow should be encouraged by the games media, not insulted. The concept that a piece of art (let's not get into it, please) cannot be completely defined with a couple of paragraphs may be displeasing to mainstream media in whatever form it may take, but unfortunately for them, it also happens to be true.

What I think he's getting at in the above quote is the very reason for expressing any original idea in the medium most suited to it, as opposed to writing prose. This idea in itself is not entirely suited to being expressed in prose.

Now THAT's pretentious...:getmecoat

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I guess games can be considered art when statements like that will not instantly make you a pretentious twat. :fart:

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I think guys like blow should be encouraged by the games media, not insulted. The concept that a piece of art (let's not get into it, please) cannot be completely defined with a couple of paragraphs may be displeasing to mainstream media in whatever form it may take, but unfortunately for them, it also happens to be true.

What I think he's getting at in the above quote is the very reason for expressing any original idea in the medium most suited to it, as opposed to writing prose. This idea in itself is not entirely suited to being expressed in prose.

Now THAT's pretentious...:getmecoat

Actually, I completely agree with you. Some things are better expressed in certain mediums, and I think he should be applauded for trying to do it with games. I don't think anyone is saying "Braid failed at being art, give it up already" (at least, I hope they're not). I think they're just offering an honest assessment of what he's done so far (and how he's talked about it). I certainly don't want him to give up or stop trying, I just want him to improve.

The reason why I think he's pretentious is because (and here is the important bit): Braid was nowhere near as effective at evoking the artistic intentions that he apparently thinks it was. If he acknowledged its failures to capture emotions and themes with a mixture of prose and gameplay, then he would come across better, I think, but instead he seems quite convinced of its success.

Unfortunately (to me at least), it was a vague mish-mash of snippets that didn't cohesively say anything. (There were moments of success, definitely. The bit at the end provoked a strong reaction in me, at least, which was great.) Don't get me wrong, I LOVED LOVED LOVED Braid. I read all the texts. I even printed them out and studied them, and tried to tie them into the gameplay mechanics of each world, trying to find a satisfactory and unifying deeper meaning. But there wasn't one... not a satisfactory one, and if I had to look THAT hard and still couldn't see it, then I think he failed anyway... but guess what: That's absolutely 100% fine. It was still a great experience.

The problem comes when people say, "So, that didn't really work as well as you hoped it would. Even if you can't put the entire thing into words, what were the themes or emotions you were trying say something about?" If you respond: "Trying to explain it would be like trying to squeeze water in my fist." You're pretentious.

That's my 2c, anyway.

But hell, I really don't want him to give up, and I wish there were more people like him trying to do something different, create art, whatever. Just something challenging and unique :tup: (And yes, I do admit that he comes across as a nice guy in his blog.)

Edited by ThunderPeel2001

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Well that's the greatest part about Blow's comment. According to him by trying to deeply examine the texts and gameplay to find deeper meaning you are going to miss the central idea. It is like trying to dig a foot wide hole in the shifting sands of the desert.

Point to Mr Blow.:shifty:

Anyhoo, anything he could say about Braid would probably be interesting, but tangential. I don't think the 'main idea' and connecting tissues are ever explicitly conveyed in the game, and to hear Blow discuss some of the ideas that weren't explicitly or clearly depicted in game would probably just make the project seem less effective. If he wrote a big thing, people would probably respond with "that's what x meant?" or "that didn't really come across" while their own interpretations of sections would seem lessened. Or he could say "I just wanted people to think about time, moments, perspective, memories tied to places and goombas" which I already kinda did when I played the game. I mean, I guess the point of a post-mortem is to discuss that sorta stuff for the benefit of development, but as a player I'm not really interested in hearing about it.

I don't think that in order to explain Braid you must first run through a rainstorm without getting wet. I also think an explanation would result in getting more out of Jonathan Blow, not getting more out of Braid

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I think the false modesty is lame and all as well as the guy tends to come off as obnoxious the way he writes, but as long as he keeps making nice games, I'll be okay. But about this...

...he's just saying he doesn't want to get into that argument with the GAMES ARE JUST SUPPOSED TO BE FUN crowd who hated Braid.

Are there people that thought somehow Braid was a chore? I'm really confused about that. Braid was annoyingly "artistic" in a non-intrusive way I found, where the poorly-constructed/hard-to-grasp narrative and symbolism were just sort of tacked on, but didn't hinder the game's design or enjoyability at all.

The story enhanced it for sure for simply existing, but I found that all of the vague prose accompanying the game could have been much stronger and more understandable, making the game more enjoyable, if that makes sense.

I guess my understanding is the game was successful with both crowds because the people who don't read shit and skip cutscenes in all games (as well as just playing to the end and they're done) could enjoy Braid just the same way the guy who meticulously looks at and reads everything could.

So I'm confused how the game wasn't fun? I suppose it would be terrible for those that hate platforming or solving puzzles. I get the feeling these elements are what Blow is putting up the air of modesty against, like he failed because the game used everyday game elements like that instead of making some abstract hard-to-crack metagame? That's kind of annoying to me, coming from someone who has played his shit prototypes on his website that all come with this diarrhea of the mouth TXT file.

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Well that's the greatest part about Blow's comment. According to him by trying to deeply examine the texts and gameplay to find deeper meaning you are going to miss the central idea. It is like trying to dig a foot wide hole in the shifting sands of the desert.

Point to Mr Blow.:shifty:

I can't think of any other piece of art that's impossible to talk about... Can you? I certainly can't think of art that's been damaged by being scrutinized, either. Sure, sometimes you may not like what you hear, or even vehemently disagree with the interpretation because you liked your own that much better. That's great, but with Braid, I haven't heard a single cohesive interpretation that holds water.

Another 2c in the jar.

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This is the guy who said he couldn't possibly describe what Braid was about. It would be literally impossible for him to do so. The only way he could get across the message in Braid was to make Braid. A leeetle bit pretentious, there.
Yeah, exactly. I can see how it's tempting to limit all attacks on blow to the "game's can't be art" crowd. But I'm certainly not in that group, just look at the Roger Ebert thread.

I just don't agree with art that's obscure to cover up any potential disagreement or defend against being dismissed. It's the Emperor's new clothes. He fits the definition of pretentious:

Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed

Most people that create obscure art are willing to discuss it at length, Blow just doesn't want to. To me it comes off as defensive.

But I really look forward to The Witness.

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