Kolzig

The Witness by Jonathan Blow

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Yeah, I get you. FWIW (and sort of tangentially related to the current discussion!), I recently played through Warrior Within and I am utterly convinced WW's aesthetic was designed with the goal of pissing the player off. I forced myself to play for the platforming, but the art style was almost literally painful to have to look at. I couldn't suspend my "disbelief" (or whatever the appropriate word might be) in that case. Plus, the combat sucked. (In fact, the combat sucks in all of the trilogy.)

Oh god I had repressed memories of playing through that game... UGH.

In addition to all the crap that I pretty much agree with, let me just add the TERRIBLE and buggy sound design! You're platforming through sweeping majestic ruins while listening to vaguely Arabian ambiance, when suddenly some enemies spawn and the music shifts to some fucking chugga jigga wugga butt rock sounding shite OH MY GOD RAGE!!!

ZpmeosZH3ZI

The best was when the combat exit triggers would fail and you'd be forced to majestically platform through the next section to terrible generic rock music...

I never did play Two Thrones or the Reboot, and I think they have WW to thank for that. Wonder what the re-reboot is going to be like?

Thanks for the link - certainly an interesting read. In the comments section, he posted this...

Wow, I totally missed that, thanks! It's good to see him owning up to it, but I have to wonder how much of that is the developer community getting on his case... Ah, well. An apology is an apology. I'll definitely try to keep an eye on The Witness dev. blog.

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I'm interested to know how those championing Braid as a beacon in the "games as art" debate view The Misadventures of P.B. Winterbottom. It's another time-bending indie game on XBLA with a unique graphical style, but the character design is exaggerated, the tunes bouncy, the text silly. It has a radically different overall tone but a similar underlying design structure. But maybe it's harder to take the designers seriously if they pointed to it and called it "art" because it stars a goofy mustachioed protagonist who steals pies using time travel.

Despite the superficial similarities, Braid and Winterbottom are quite different. Winterbottom's puzzles essentially use the same mechanic over and over again in slightly different ways. Additionally, the cloning mechanic and the time constraints combine to put a lot of emphasis on traditional platformer twitchiness. In Braid, you can almost always find an elegant solution that you can complete easily in one go - it's just finding that solution that's difficult. Winterbottom is also almost completely linear, whereas Braid is almost completely not. (You can run through all the levels, and then go back and solve the puzzles - not so in Winterbottom!)

I still enjoy Winterbottom a lot. The silent movie style works well for the premise, and I enjoy the rhymes. It's quite whimsical. But it does have a slightly manufactured feel to it, as if some executive at 2K saw Braid and said "Hey, indie team, you know what's popular these days? Puzzle platformers with time-based mechanics! Go make one of those!" Which isn't to denigrate what that team came up with; it just doesn't feel like a labor of mis-placed love and self-involvement like Braid does - for better and for worse.

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Despite the superficial similarities, Braid and Winterbottom are quite different. Winterbottom's puzzles essentially use the same mechanic over and over again in slightly different ways. Additionally, the cloning mechanic and the time constraints combine to put a lot of emphasis on traditional platformer twitchiness. In Braid, you can almost always find an elegant solution that you can complete easily in one go - it's just finding that solution that's difficult. Winterbottom is also almost completely linear, whereas Braid is almost completely not. (You can run through all the levels, and then go back and solve the puzzles - not so in Winterbottom!)

I still enjoy Winterbottom a lot. The silent movie style works well for the premise, and I enjoy the rhymes. It's quite whimsical. But it does have a slightly manufactured feel to it, as if some executive at 2K saw Braid and said "Hey, indie team, you know what's popular these days? Puzzle platformers with time-based mechanics! Go make one of those!" Which isn't to denigrate what that team came up with; it just doesn't feel like a labor of mis-placed love and self-involvement like Braid does - for better and for worse.

You make a lot of good points. (Although, IIRC, Winterbottom started as a graduate thesis by a team of students. It was later that it got picked up by 2K after a good showing at IGF.) And you're right, the two games are quite different structurally. But I was just using Winterbottom as an example to illustrate my argument that the window dressing in Braid was a deliberate attempt to make the game as a whole seem more meaningful to people who wouldn't have taken it seriously had it been done using programmer art or geometric shapes.

It's like how Bill Murray was in all these great comedies, but he has to brood around Tokyo for two hours in Lost In Translation before someone will give him an Oscar nod. Which sort of implies that his comedy work wasn't worthy of recognition. People sometimes won't appreciate the artistic value of something unless it fits their preconceived expectation of what "something of artistic value" looks like, sounds like, smells like, etc. So... make Braid look kinda like a painting, and it subliminally gets the outside observer thinking, "Hey, paintings are considered art, right? So maybe this game could be, too!"

But to me, it seems like if you want the mechanics of the game to speak for themselves, then adding in all the mysterious pictures and cryptic text (and secret, alternate text) just confuses the issue. It makes people start talking about the meaning behind everything in Braid except the gameplay and what it means to the player, which seems like the area Blow was trying to make his point. Unless, of course, he anticipated this misdirection and the tendency of players to notice the form of a game over the content was part of the statement Jonathan Blow was trying to make. In which case, if so, he's a fucking evil genius. :erm:

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Unless, of course, he anticipated this misdirection and the tendency of players to notice the form of a game over the content was part of the statement Jonathan Blow was trying to make.

I have this pet theory about the "meaning" of Braid that is kind of this.

Ok don't laugh. I admit, I'm a huge Blow/Braid fanboy. And a former English major in school. That's not so much an excuse as it is a disclaimer:

The various story bits are all kind of about how the obsessive pursuit of something incurs a cost. Tim's search for the princess, the developing the atomic bomb metaphor, both these things come at a cost.

It's worth noting that both these threads are about splitting apart things. (like you might separate out things braided together)

Tim must split from the unidentified "she" in order to seek out the princess, atoms must be split to build the bomb. The castle which figures as an ancillary metaphor for both pursuits must be broken down to its constituent stones.

And so goes the player's drive to find an explanation for the plot: in doing so, one runs the risk of splitting Braid into its constituent parts and overlooking the gameplay content in favor of unravelling the story.

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But I was just using Winterbottom as an example to illustrate my argument that the window dressing in Braid was a deliberate attempt to make the game as a whole seem more meaningful to people who wouldn't have taken it seriously had it been done using programmer art or geometric shapes.

What, making your game look pretty is suddenly some kind of big conspiracy?

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I have this pet theory about the "meaning" of Braid that is kind of this.

...

And so goes the player's drive to find an explanation for the plot: in doing so, one runs the risk of splitting Braid into its constituent parts and overlooking the gameplay content in favor of unravelling the story.

That's really astute. It all fits together surprisingly well... :shifty:

What, making your game look pretty is suddenly some kind of big conspiracy?

You misunderstand me. I'm just saying it wouldn't shock me if Blow - a guy who champions minimalist games like The Marriage because they don't need pretty graphics (or dialogue, background music, etc) to be artistic and meaningful - gave Braid an aesthetic he figured people would expect to see from a game claiming to be artistic and meaningful so they didn't dismiss it out of hand.

Or maybe he was simply trying to put some of his ideas for experimental game design into a project that was also commercially viable.

Or maybe he just wanted the game to spark thoughtful discussion on internet message boards.

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Perhaps a little from all those columns, HPopper; despite my dislike of his overall tone I think he's a pretty deep individual, certainly capable of pursuing multiple goal vectors like that!

I encountered some more fuel for this little thread (One of my favorites next to the Nintendo hidden gems one!) recently on the Braid Blog, actually- He's made a talk he gave at the Montreal International Game Summit available. {download link to lecture mp3 and powerpoint}

There's a part in there where he sort of indirectly addresses one of the things we've been discussing regarding Braid's delivery of story that I found really illuminating. To paraphrase, he doesn't want to convey something to players that he feels he truly has a firm grasp of. I think the (in some ways "slippery") story layers of Braid make a lot of sense in the context of the creator "pointing toward" something he's not 100% sure of and saying, "Do you see it over there? I almost can, but if I could see it clearly I wouldn't bother pointing at it. That would be boring to me in some way."

Also, Re: The ongoing sub-discussion about the the development community liking what Blow says, but not so much HOW he chooses to say it; I think it's really interesting how the tone of that talk shifts quite a bit when the floor is open to questions from the audience. A few of the askers take on a slightly more combative tone than you always get at these talks. There's a little boiler there if you want to see it- Jason Della Rocca hinted at something when he introduced Blow; He talked a lot about this kind of stuff in very similar tones prior to unleashing Braid upon us, and there was a fair amount of "Who does this guy who's never shipped a game that I've heard of think he IS?". Now that he's successful, his tone hasn't changed, but the respect he deserves, (and the potential for rivalry!) has.

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I've got such a raging Myst-hardon for this game it's unbelieveable. It's about time someone made another beautiful island full of mystery and puzzles, where nothing is explained to you.

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those line puzzles look like some of those puzzles in Prof Layton

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Looks astoundingly boring thus far.

It sure does. But I really wants to play it! :tup: (I hope they don't change the look of it too much.) A modern Myst could be really good if done well, and after Braid I'm willing to buy this completely sight unseen.

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Walking around a mysterious, idyllic island with the purpose of solving puzzles is a beautiful and intriguing concept to me. I wonder how the puzzles will be utilized macrocosmically.

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It sure does. But I really wants to play it! :tup: (I hope they don't change the look of it too much.) A modern Myst could be really good if done well, and after Braid I'm willing to buy this completely sight unseen.

Yeah, I didn't like Myst, but I liked the concept and am curious to see Blow's take on it. Day One Perch.

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some of the later puzzles at the end of the kotaku video were interesting. You stop just mashing through the maze and have to use some logic on where to start. I like it.

If he makes a solid sunset I'm sold.

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Really clever of him to not announce anything before the show. Test for people to be surprised and find it without all the marketing hype.
Clever, or pretentious? His blog post just came across as condescending to me.

I really don't get the video. I have high expectations of the game. I loved Braid and, snarkiness aside, I think Blow has high standards for his own work. I just don't get where the fun comes in, given that I can get more interesting mazes with a Happy Meal. I'm sure there's more to it than just that, I'm just withholding my excitement for the time being.

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Clever, or pretentious? His blog post just came across as condescending to me.

I really don't get the video. I have high expectations of the game. I loved Braid and, snarkiness aside, I think Blow has high standards for his own work. I just don't get where the fun comes in, given that I can get more interesting mazes with a Happy Meal. I'm sure there's more to it than just that, I'm just withholding my excitement for the time being.

Yeah, I don't think that's the entire game... just the first set of puzzles, I imagine. Blow is most definitely pretentious, but I think it was a great idea to leave one of the most anticipated releases completely unmanned like that. Most artists want to believe their work is perfect, and want lots of praise, but he really opened himself up to some very honest feedback. I respect that. I also think it's really cool from a marketing point of view: I love the idea of just stumbling across a game I'd LOVE to play (if I knew what it was), but that most people just wandered right past without giving it a second glance... because they didn't take the time to investigate something. Quite romantic, in a way.

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Marketing experiments aside, I think it was cool of him to do it so that people could spend as much time as they wanted at the station. That's very much the spirit of PAX.

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Yeah, I don't think that's the entire game... just the first set of puzzles, I imagine. Blow is most definitely pretentious, but I think it was a great idea to leave one of the most anticipated releases completely unmanned like that. Most artists want to believe their work is perfect, and want lots of praise, but he really opened himself up to some very honest feedback.
I suppose my issue is the fact that he's the one who's telling us how anticipated his game is. Sure, there's a bunch of game nerds who certainly are looking forward to it, but most of the gaming public wouldn't even know he's working on a new game.

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I'm still going to guess this is going to be an interesting game based on Braid, but the more I think about it, it seems Blow has a lot to follow up with to Braid.

The video looks like an alright game, but so far I just get the feeling it's just a series of puzzles in a 3D wrapper (a very stale 3D wrapper, although with nice lighting). I guess I'll still anticipate it though. I'm not going to read Blow's blog post though, I don't like how he talks.

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I suppose my issue is the fact that he's the one who's telling us how anticipated his game is. Sure, there's a bunch of game nerds who certainly are looking forward to it, but most of the gaming public wouldn't even know he's working on a new game.

Eh? As far as indy games go, Braid was a huge success. Who are you calling nerd, nerd? :mock:

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Eh? As far as indy games go, Braid was a huge success. Who are you calling nerd, nerd? :mock:

Ah.

I'm making a note here.

"Huge Success"

anything else?

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For some reason, I absolutely love the art style in this game. It reminds me of those architect pictures that depict how the building and its surroundings will look like when the work is complete. I think that this kind of completely artificial look might fit this sort of game really well.

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