Kolzig

The Witness by Jonathan Blow

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LightMass?? The Unreal Engine lighting system? What? o_O

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Re: Blow's pretentiousness

You'd be correct that when people say this they're talking mostly about the man and his real world interactions with other humans. As I said, he's rather brilliant and he's clearly aware of that fact... I tend to agree with what he says most of the time, but not with HOW he says it.

For example, when describing some of the source inspiration for Braid he spoke publicly about PoP: The Sands of Time. As I recall, it goes something like, "So it had this intriguing time rewinding mechanic that let you undo your mistakes which I thought was really interesting, but the way it was done sucked because it was limited- you'd run out."

So, agreed that tying this ability to an in-game resource is restrictive and definitely makes the power less interesting and fun to use, but I don't think he gave them credit for tying that system to the combat and rewards for defeating enemies. One of the advantages he had over Mechner was that his game is FAR simpler- It's ALL about that time bending mechanic, were PoP has to try to find ways to blend combat and more traditional storytelling in. He can be very dismissive when talking about other people's work. Looking for less "it sucks" and more "felt like a missed opportunity".

And while I think Braid tells a beautiful and sad story, the one I was "reading" did not take place in the text... it took place in the puzzles, visual symbolism, and artwork. I think the text story layer tries a BIT too hard to be deep and mysterious, sometimes "missing" the player by logical inches. If his writing style's goal is for every single player to have a different impression of what it's all about, mission accomplished. But is that really "depth"? I think it's more "malleability", personally. Not necessarily a negative trait, depending on who's partaking.

And for the record, I'll take Blow over Cage any day! I like to pick nits, but I genuinely love braid and am looking forward to what's next.

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I've never understood why people criticize Braid for being pretentious. What Blow says about Braid, I can absolutely understand, but the game itself, why? Because it puts some cryptic text in between levels?

Don't get me wrong, I *loved* Braid. The concept, execution, eveything - it was fantastic. But the actual text within the game was horribly overwritten. I don't mind cryptic text or subtle themes or pieces you have to put together itself. But the prose itself within the game is just trying too hard. It beat the player over the head - like a David Lynch film - with what it thought was its own brand of subtley and meaning. "DON'T YOU GET IT, THIS GAME IS DEEP AND THOUGHTFUL, IN CASE YOU DIDN'T NOTICE" was how virtually all the text came across as.

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Don't get me wrong, I *loved* Braid. The concept, execution, eveything - it was fantastic. But the actual text within the game was horribly overwritten. I don't mind cryptic text or subtle themes or pieces you have to put together itself. But the prose itself within the game is just trying too hard. It beat the player over the head - like a David Lynch film - with what it thought was its own brand of subtley and meaning. "DON'T YOU GET IT, THIS GAME IS DEEP AND THOUGHTFUL, IN CASE YOU DIDN'T NOTICE" was how virtually all the text came across as.

I totally agree, especially when Blow says things like "well, if I could put the meaning into words, I wouldn't have needed to make the game", which translates as "I don't know, it's just a feeling I was going for" or "I'm really really really pretentious". However, Braid is awesome, so I totally forgive.

Not sure about your "David Lynch" comparison, though. Lynch is a much more talented artist than Blow.

Also: I'm going to call it and say that The Witness will be pants. Sorry, I just don't think he's got two Braids in him.

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Don't get me wrong, I *loved* Braid. The concept, execution, eveything - it was fantastic. But the actual text within the game was horribly overwritten. I don't mind cryptic text or subtle themes or pieces you have to put together itself. But the prose itself within the game is just trying too hard. It beat the player over the head - like a David Lynch film - with what it thought was its own brand of subtley and meaning. "DON'T YOU GET IT, THIS GAME IS DEEP AND THOUGHTFUL, IN CASE YOU DIDN'T NOTICE" was how virtually all the text came across as.

As another who loved Braid, I agree with this as well, but I guess I didn't want to criticize too much because when I enjoy something so loudly pretentious, it's a rare thing. I'll also agree with the David Lynch reference, because I'm not a fan and don't understand people who are.

But if Braid were maybe a series of illustrated pages with that text, I probably wouldn't have liked it. Since it is a game that is fun to play, it was great. I did love the art style and presentation, so I don't have qualms with that. I did not think the digital brush strokes were amateurish outside of the close up puzzle/paintings, and they certainly weren't anywhere as sloppy as Monkey Island SE.

I guess I'm always sort of a rube when it comes to abstract prose, but I wish whatever was going on with Braid's story was much more clear. I don't really need it to hit me over the head, but I agree with Thunderpeel when the creator starts making cop-out answers like that with not even the slightest bit of help, it makes me think Blow didn't even know what he was doing and was using the trick of putting a lot of stuff out there with little to no link in an effort for it's obscurity to become a story in itself.

Anyway, it won't bother me much until the it gets to be a habit and the third Blow game does the same.

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David Lynch is actually thanked in the credits. At least on the PC version. More? (And does the YouTube tag work around here?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=wMDEmbhjfnY

Pleased to see some continual updates, could be one of the most in depth 'developer diaries' ever. The ones on main gaming sites by big time directors and producers only seem to scratch the surface.

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What I don't get is what do people don't like about Braid…*I mean you can try and argue that it's objectively something something something (even artwise but I'd tend to disagree on a lot of what has been said), but man…*For once, the game does not talk about expected things, themes or…*I don't know, what would you like the texts in between to be ? Just "oh, and by the way BOOM haha, see the joke ?"...

They're talking pretty casually about his life, important moments of tim's life but they're not poems, they're just texts, what could anyone find wrong about that ?

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They're talking pretty casually about his life, important moments of tim's life but they're not poems, they're just texts, what could anyone find wrong about that ?

That they don't make any sense, have any consistent theme, seem related to the game (except in very vague ways), or really add as much to the experience as the designer thinks they do.

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That they don't make any sense, have any consistent theme, seem related to the game (except in very vague ways), or really add as much to the experience as the designer thinks they do.

Well, it must depend then, they made sense to me, they have a consistent theme, they're always at least for a bit related to the level (or at least I felt like so) and I went back not so long ago to read them again…

I dunno I might be dumb but i like this game.

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seem related to the game (except in very vague ways)

They do seem very much related to the games mechanics. It's been a while since I last played it, but I remember that most books seemed to relate to the world at hand and its mechanics. I think it's up to you what kind of meaning you want to subscribe to them.

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They do seem very much related to the games mechanics. It's been a while since I last played it, but I remember that most books seemed to relate to the world at hand and its mechanics. I think it's up to you what kind of meaning you want to subscribe to them.

They do relate... in vague (and often contradictory) ways.

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of the advantages he had over Mechner was that his game is FAR simpler

Actually, the biggest advantage he had over Mechner, was Mechner already accomplished what he set out to do, thus giving him a really strong foundation to see what worked and what didn't so he could revise this core idea.

I just had to point that out, because having someone else do the leg work for you and then building on it is far easier. (sorry if this sounds negative, it's how we developed as humans)

DON'T YOU GET IT, THIS GAME IS DEEP AND THOUGHTFUL, IN CASE YOU DIDN'T NOTICE"

hehehe, yeah thats literally how almost every aspect of the game came off to me. Aside from that screaming in my ear every two seconds there was something else that bothered me; something I dare not speak of because Im probably wrong and it will make people mad.

I don't know, what would you like the texts in between to be ?

Not there. Whatever narrative they were telling and how it was presented bugged me, just a personal thing.

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Murdoc, I was a fan of Braid's look on my PC, but I also agree with most of your analysis. Maybe it was the entire game's forest that allowed me to ignore some of the art-directional trees you've pointed to. I'm curious as to what games of this genre (2d art, small team) have struck you as having really strong art-direction?

Does this also mean that Braid2 is no more? Oh, taking a second look I realize the joke was on me.

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Does this also mean that Braid2 is no more? Oh, taking a second look I realize the joke was on me.

The april issue of GameInfarcer. Hints couldn't be more obvious.

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Actually, the biggest advantage he had over Mechner, was Mechner already accomplished what he set out to do, thus giving him a really strong foundation to see what worked and what didn't so he could revise this core idea.

Absolutely! Looking back, I may not have mentioned this because at the time it seemed super obvious... Props for pointing it out, because after rereading it seems super missing from the explanation. This example of taking a mechanic from a game that came before and refining it is particularly noteworthy because:

  • The source and follow-up games are not entries in the same franchise (or even genre, really)
  • The games are not by the same creators (or publisher, etc.)
  • The refinement arguably WORKED, and didn't feel like one game taking a bite out of another!

We're very used to this process, but it usually occurs across sequels, it's almost always within the same genre, and when it's not either of those, it tends to be less "evolution" and more "copy-cat cache-in".

That they don't make any sense, have any consistent theme, seem related to the game (except in very vague ways), or really add as much to the experience as the designer thinks they do.

They didn't add much for me either, but there is one awesome thing about the presentation that might get overlooked! This is something that I brought up when demoing the game for some of the designers at our company, actually. The text that the designer clearly wanted to give to the player was present, and that's his choice... But NONE of it is required reading. As a completionist, there was no way that I could personally walk past those pedestals without reading their contents, but a player COULD. Choice is one of the most valuable things we've got going for us as a medium, and I think books you can walk right past is a brilliant way of delivering story that isn't integral to gameplay. Props to Blow for not making his poems pop-up dialogue boxes or unskippable cutscenes with motion graphic text. I may not like the writing very much, but the presentation really holds up.

I think it's really interesting how divisive Braid is, while still being unifying: Everyone here agrees that it's fun, worthwhile, and a must-play... But we all have wildly different gripes about it. One of the marks of successful media is that it's sort of culturally invasive in ways that encourage us to look closer, form opinions, and communicate with others. If there were nothing about Braid that bugged us, there'd also be nothing much to talk about.

"Hey, did you play it?"

"I liked it. It was just... good all around. I liked all parts equally."

"Yeah, me too..."

"Yup."

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That they don't make any sense, have any consistent theme, seem related to the game (except in very vague ways), or really add as much to the experience as the designer thinks they do.

I think this pretty much sums up really well how I feel. Said much better too.

I don't think they detract from the experience though, which kind of helps makes me not upset that I don't fully understand what's going on outside of the basics. I did think the weird epilogue level was sort of stupid and obscure though.

Well, it must depend then, they made sense to me, they have a consistent theme, they're always at least for a bit related to the level (or at least I felt like so) and I went back not so long ago to read them again…

I dunno I might be dumb but i like this game.

Well I'm assuming Thunderpeel understood the themes and the bits related to the level. Those are pretty well spelled out. I got that he was referring to all of the details of the story, like

exactly what happened to the girlfriend (I remember one book had me wondering if it referred to domestic abuse?) and what was up with all of that atom bomb/Manhattan Project stuff?

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/943284/53842

This story guide goes into a lot of depth, but doesn't seem to find any answers to the further questions it tends to create.

Ultimately, I was left feeling that Jonathan Blow didn't really have any clear direction or big reveal that it seemed to me that he was going for in the beginning texts of the game. I think it was intentional, but I don't like that intention, I guess.

Props to Blow for not making his poems pop-up dialogue boxes or unskippable cutscenes with motion graphic text. I may not like the writing very much, but the presentation really holds up.

I think it's really interesting how divisive Braid is, while still being unifying: Everyone here agrees that it's fun, worthwhile, and a must-play... But we all have wildly different gripes about it. One of the marks of successful media is that it's sort of culturally invasive in ways that encourage us to look closer, form opinions, and communicate with others. If there were nothing about Braid that bugged us, there'd also be nothing much to talk about.

I agree with everything you have said here. :tup:

Edited by syntheticgerbil

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Absolutely agree Xeneth, if I never added this before, you made some excellent points about the art earlier. I mention it only now because going through this thread has lightened me up a bit and Ill eventually take a second stab at the game and probably look at it more favorably, though I don't think my personal taste in the art will change after that.

@ Floordje: Tough question, I'm really not super knowledgeable in the indy scene. I can point out adequate things I've seen or the usual impressive flash stuff; but even then I think most of those examples weren't done at Braid team sizes(2 people, am I wrong?)

I suppose on that reflection I can at least tip my hat to them for trying something other then retro throw back, flash/cartoon look(vauge and inaccurate, but you know what I mean) or just your adequate kind of art (it's there, usually pretty bland). As Xeneth pointed out, Hellman has a niche/style and that's Braid, like it or don't, I guess.

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Re: Blow's pretentiousness

I tend to agree with what he says most of the time, but not with HOW he says it.

I like his talks because I find the subject matter interesting and he makes some good points. But you're right: it's how he conveys this information that makes him come off as arrogant. He talks down to the audience. When he presents his ideas, his tone and phrasing make it sound like he thinks he's the first and only person to think of them.

I almost feel like the reason Braid comes off as pretentious is because it was designed to look and feel deliberately "artsy". The dreamlike visuals, minimalist audio, and vague text snippets would seem to make a stronger first impression than the actual game mechanics - which is what Blow actually talks about.

I'm interested to know how those championing Braid as a beacon in the "games as art" debate view The Misadventures of P.B. Winterbottom. It's another time-bending indie game on XBLA with a unique graphical style, but the character design is exaggerated, the tunes bouncy, the text silly. It has a radically different overall tone but a similar underlying design structure. But maybe it's harder to take the designers seriously if they pointed to it and called it "art" because it stars a goofy mustachioed protagonist who steals pies using time travel.

I genuinely love braid and am looking forward to what's next.

I also agree with this.

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I never examined Braid's story or writing as closely as some of you have clearly done. I find that if I start tearing things apart, it ends up ruining my enjoyment of just about anything. Not just allegedly pretentious or obviously problematic themes/stories, but anything. I have a pretty keen eye for flaws and inconsistencies if I put my mind to it, but I guess over time I've just developed this super-powered suspension of disbelief that I can apply to almost everything.

As a result, I absolutely loved Braid. All of it. :3

That said, while I am interested in The Witness, I need to know more. Immediately after finishing Braid, I said I would play anything else he delivered, but there's just so little to go on!

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Is this the Sands of Time discussion previously referred to?

(He starts at 6 minutes in)

I like Jonathan Blow, because, pretentious or not, he thinks that games can be something more than mindless FPSs, and is therefore trying to push them to the art-form he hopes they can be.

I'd take any game of his over 5 of Cliffy B's.

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I find that if I start tearing things apart, it ends up ruining my enjoyment of just about anything. Not just allegedly pretentious or obviously problematic themes/stories, but anything.

Yeah, this is a struggle for me, in case you couldn't already tell! I try to inject constructive elements into it where I can, but I can't lie, I'm a very judgmental and overly-analytical person by nature. For what it's worth, while IMMERSED in Braid itself, most of what I said above hadn't even crystallized. I was in video game heaven, the introspective thing tends to happen in retrospect.

Is this the Sands of Time discussion previously referred to?

Blow is very vocal in the community, so it's hard for me to put a finger on WHICH talk he was being dismissive of the Sands of Time design in, but I did find this article, which might shed some light...

I think the Prince of Persia designers did things that way because they didn't know how to make a game any other way---how are you supposed to make a platform game where you can't punish/kill the player for failing jumps? How do you get around that lack of challenge/consequence? They didn't know, so they punted on the problem. Or maybe they didn't even think that deeply about it. Their preconceived notions about what it meant to be a platformer were so strong that the rewind couldn't blossom.

As stated before, I don't disagree so much as I find the tone and choice of words to be presumptuous and dismissive. Genius level humans are notorious for being challenging to interface with on various levels *shrug*.

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Can someone please change the thread title to say, "The Witness by Jonathan Blow? More like Witness Jonathan Blow" for old times sake?

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Yeah, this is a struggle for me, in case you couldn't already tell! I try to inject constructive elements into it where I can, but I can't lie, I'm a very judgmental and overly-analytical person by nature. For what it's worth, while IMMERSED in Braid itself, most of what I said above hadn't even crystallized. I was in video game heaven, the introspective thing tends to happen in retrospect.

Yeah, I get you. FWIW (and sort of tangentially related to the current discussion!), I recently played through Warrior Within and I am utterly convinced WW's aesthetic was designed with the goal of pissing the player off. I forced myself to play for the platforming, but the art style was almost literally painful to have to look at. I couldn't suspend my "disbelief" (or whatever the appropriate word might be) in that case. Plus, the combat sucked. (In fact, the combat sucks in all of the trilogy.)

I guess the game at least has to appeal to me on some base level, which Braid did quite a bit.

Also, I suspect that the reason the developers allowed you to run out of rewind power was entirely due to the combat. The combat would be far too easy if you had infinite rewind. In contrast, I don't think I ever once ran out of sand during the platforming sections, unless I was especially hurting from a an immediately preceding fight. If there was no combat, I don't think the limit on rewind would have mattered for most people who've been playing games all their life.

In other words, those games would have been much better without the combat.

End random tangential rant.

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Blow is very vocal in the community, so it's hard for me to put a finger on WHICH talk he was being dismissive of the Sands of Time design in, but I did find this article, which might shed some light...

Thanks for the link - certainly an interesting read. In the comments section, he posted this:

"Re-reading this interview, I see that I came off as pretty harsh-sounding toward the Prince of Persia designers.

That wasn't my intention. Yes, I think they dropped the ball when it came to exploiting rewindability, but I think it is pretty cool that they put it in there in the first place; without Prince of Persia: Sands of Time as an example to start from, Braid might never have been made, or might have turned out very different.

So, thank you PoP: SoT design team, and sorry this interview came out sounding all negative about your choices."

I love his description of Rod Humble's The Marriage at the end. I think it reveals what he is pursuing in games. He's not trying to recreate films, as so many other designers are doing - he's trying to establish gaming as an artistic medium by creating games that connote meaning in their gameplay. Perhaps that is a necessity for any medium of art. That's a milestone to reach.

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