toblix

Red Dead Redemption

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Finished on Saturday, what an amazing game. A little lull in Mexico story wise for a while but I got to wear a poncho the whole time I was there so still awesome.

I loved the fourth act, just chilling with the family, properly connecting with them, seeing Bonnie again and really feeling this worth all the bloodshed and being knowingly used as a puppet. It highlighted my favorite thing about the game, the conversations you had riding to missions. Satisfied me in the same way dragon age companions chatting did.

I As I enjoyed it more, the feeling of doom crept in. I knew what would happen, John and his wife knew what would happen. From when the army showed up on the skyline to John standing in the barn knowing what was outside was pitch perfect. It was as good as Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid, maybe better because you were alone. I regret not taking more of them out, I had a moment of hope where I might be able to kill enough of them to fight my way out.

Then the grave, a welling of tears not seen since the end of HL2 Episode 2. "I guess the next game is Red Dead Revenge... Oh wow apparently not." I definitely did not fast travel to my vengence. For the first time I put on the duster coat. I sped through the thunder and lightning to get my vengence. It was very dramatic. I definitely did not have to do it three times after falling off the bridge twice. Okay I did but it was still epic.

Against the way John Marston had played the game, with almost total honor, when I met his wife, I hogtied her and threw her on the back of the horse, so he would watch her die. By fire bottle. Brother got murdered. Then I shot my father's killer dead. BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM game over. Amazing.

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I'm into the third act. As others have said, the dialogue isn't great, but I love the way it's using the map to tell the story of men like John Marston becoming, well, obsolete.

I felt really out of place on entering

the city, and seeing John riding around as passenger in a car was quite sad

.

I've possibly been playing a bit too much. I was cycling earlier, and on catching sight of a brightly coloured plant in my peripheral vision my first instinct was to stop and pick some.

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So what's next for the GTA engine/formula? I'd really like to see a pirate game done on the RDR/GTA template.

Grand Theft Bullion?

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I don't know, I'm perhaps done with the old GTA formula. I crave a little bit more specific interactivity with the world, if that makes any sense. Think more 'Oblivion'.

So, the more interesting question might be: do we think Rockstar is going to make another game using these same gameplay mechanics or are they going to crack open their game and take the next ambitious step?

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I don't know, I'm perhaps done with the old GTA formula. I crave a little bit more specific interactivity with the world, if that makes any sense. Think more 'Oblivion'.

Can you expand on that? Do you mean dialogue trees (or even more yes/no choices)? More small-scale persistent changes to the world-state?

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It'll be interesting to see if L.A Noire answers any of our systemic concerns on this front.

I'm aware that it's not the same PART of Rockstar doing it, but given what they've revealed about painstakingly recreating a Los Angeles that doesn't really exist any more from pre-quake reference photography, I think it's a safe bet that it's going to be an "open world" game.

If I'm right, they're going to run into a LOT of the same design questions, like "How and when do we gate the player in an open world?", "Where do tasks we want the player to perform no matter what end and optional tasks begin?", or "How do we portray the main character when not under player control?"

My hope is that some of the answers to these questions come out a little different this time and we end up with something a little more detective-y and a little less shooter-y. A little less concerned with telling a linear story that's unbraided in parts and pinned to little letter icons on a map. I dig the GTA formula at times, but it hasn't felt relevant from a design standpoint since the PS2 era...

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Can you expand on that? Do you mean dialogue trees (or even more yes/no choices)? More small-scale persistent changes to the world-state?

I guess what I'm starting to find a little outdated is the way Rockstar handles quests in the game. You have these amazing cutscenes filled with character and promise, but the world itself is disconnected to that. Whereas in Oblivion (and other games of the sort) there's more the feeling that questgivers are actually in the same world as you're in, not just existing in a cutscene. It took a few minutes to get over the slight disappointment I felt when I discovered Red Dead was going to be a 'GTA-like', where the only real interactivity with NPC's comes through your weaponry.

So, yes, dialogue trees. But also, as a world, more diverse things to do. I find it hard to come up with real examples. I should think about it a little more to discover what this is truly about.

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When I first started playing I was a little confused by only being able to shove people or shoot people, so I totally know what you mean.

Need more verbs that don't begin with "sh".

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So, yes, dialogue trees. But also, as a world, more diverse things to do. I find it hard to come up with real examples. I should think about it a little more to discover what this is truly about.

It's a pipe dream, but I'd like to see something like this in a RDR game...

In the free roam activities, suppose you clean someone out at poker:

1) they could reach into their pocket and pull out their emergency cash reserve/life savings. You could just get up and walk away from the poker table.* But if you don't and clean them out again...

2) they could accuse you of cheating and challenge you to a duel (even if you haven't actually been cheating)

3) maybe you win the duel by disarming them (if you kill them, skip to 6)

4) but that might mean that they later get a bunch of their pals together and try to rob you.

5) you could just flee*, but if you kill them their brother/son could come gunning for you or maybe later you just happen across their family at the cemetery crying

6) later still you see the family by the side of the road panhandling now that their breadwinner's been put into the ground.

7) or maybe you see the wife in the brothel having become a prostitute to make ends meet. etc.

Never happen of course, or if it does, it'd all be hard coded as a story mission which just wouldn't have the same evocative punch it gets because you know that

a)you started it by hitting up an innocuous poker minigame icon

and

B) had (*) opportunities to walk away.

It'd be something to see.

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I'm with Rodi on this one. A bit tired of the formula. It still works, as RDR was a really good game, but it has aged and other games have gone beyond that (even if in different genres, talking about Fallout 3, Oblivion, Stalker etc.).

Three main distinctions I think define the formula (I haven't thought about this a lot, maybe there's more):

1) the cutscene/world dissonance Rodi mentioned

2) the really basic mission structure (compared to a proper quest system). The challenges in RDR added a bit variety to it but it was very little.

3) the "bubble". Things and NPCs only exist in a bubble around you. I guess that bubble is larger in RDR, and needs to be as there are no walls to cap visibility, but it's still the same. Things that exist most of the time are mission markers and things in the bubble, mostly random things that will be gone forever when they leave the bubble.

But again, not all great games need a very complex formula. Far Cry 2 is basically GTA dumbed down, with some shuffling in the missions + buddy system (maybe I'm oversimplifying).

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It's a pipe dream, but I'd like to see something like this in a RDR game...

In the free roam activities, suppose you clean someone out at poker:

1) they could reach into their pocket and pull out their emergency cash reserve/life savings. You could just get up and walk away from the poker table.* But if you don't and clean them out again...

2) they could accuse you of cheating and challenge you to a duel (even if you haven't actually been cheating)

3) maybe you win the duel by disarming them (if you kill them, skip to 6)

4) but that might mean that they later get a bunch of their pals together and try to rob you.

5) you could just flee*, but if you kill them their brother/son could come gunning for you or maybe later you just happen across their family at the cemetery crying

6) later still you see the family by the side of the road panhandling now that their breadwinner's been put into the ground.

7) or maybe you see the wife in the brothel having become a prostitute to make ends meet. etc.

Never happen of course, or if it does, it'd all be hard coded as a story mission which just wouldn't have the same evocative punch it gets because you know that

a)you started it by hitting up an innocuous poker minigame icon

and

B) had (*) opportunities to walk away.

It'd be something to see.

Love it!

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me saying stuff

It occurs on rereading that I lost my original point in that. I was careful in that bit of a rant to not use any verbs which don't already exist in RDR: you play poker or you don't, you shoot to disarm or you don't etc. Which is to say that I don't really need "more diverse things to do," although, sure, it'd be nice. More important to me, however, is I want the world to react better to the things I do do.

(I said doodoo :hah:)

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REALLY enjoying this so far... my gaming drought has definitely ended! :tup:

If anyone is interested in going for 100% Completion, RockStar have put this awesome page together. Unlike GTAIV, going for 100% completion is actually fun (I think).

This (along with a GameFAQ) has proven so very handy:

http://socialclub.rockstargames.com/games/rdr/checklist.html

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Well, I just finished this game (with 100%, too). Superb. Really enjoyed it :tup:

Not super keen on the ending, especially the last bunch of missions (herding cows... come on, not again, and the general boringness of farm life -- a very lazy cheat to try and force the player to care about the characters). I'm also getting very tired of Houser's writing... I knew precisely how most of the Stranger missions were going to end. He's gotten SO predictable now.

Still a great game, though. I love having that world as a sandbox.

Anyone got any thoughts on the DLC?

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Yeah, I'm interested in the DLC too. I think I might get it actually, if only because I enjoyed the Lost and Damned DLC for GTAIV so much. I still haven't finished Gay Tony but I have a lot of faith in these guys and it sounds like the DLC has a good story. Which, considering how fed up the media must be of zombies in games, must be a good sign.

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Thunder, same question as for everyone. Did you FINISH finish the story, or did you stop

after John died

?

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Thunder, same question as for everyone. Did you FINISH finish the story, or did you stop

after John died

?

I got 100% completion... So yes, I FINISHED the story :tup:

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Ah. Missed that. Very good then, sir. I have the DLC, but have yet to have the opportunity to fire it up. I will be doing so tomorrow night if all goes as planned, and will respond with thoughts when the time comes.

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Oh, that's the DLC I have. It's a single-player expansion for the game. Not part of the story, but a side-thing. After finishing up the stuff in Mexico, John gets home and does some basic stuff. Then Blackwater becomes ground zero for a zombie uprising. Despite how sick of zombies I've gotten lately, the idea of a zombie western appealed to me, and the Giant Bomb quicklook made it look awesome. I picked it up, and am looking forward to playing it. The rest of the DLC has all been multiplayer stuff, and after a day playing the multiplayer with a few people right after the game came out, I'm not particularly interested in trying any more of it. As such, if you're looking for opinions on the other, non-single player DLC, you'll need to check somewhere else.

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In reading this sentence "where the only real interactivity with NPC's comes through your weaponry."

It struck me as both true and odd... all the things I enjoy, and all the good things I hear about the game, never involve shooting stuff. Yet that is the majority of the gameplay.

I thought that I wanted GTA in a different setting, and I love the setting of RDR but for me what is good about GTA is that it is a great driving game.

I do not mean that it is a racing game, but that you can drive, and do many different and interesting things while driving that react in dynamic ways. Escape from cops, be a vigilante, listen to the radio etc... that layer onto each other.

In RDR the mechanic that everything is layered onto is shooting. And that makes me sad.

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Oh, that's the DLC I have. It's a single-player expansion for the game. Not part of the story, but a side-thing. After finishing up the stuff in Mexico, John gets home and does some basic stuff. Then Blackwater becomes ground zero for a zombie uprising. Despite how sick of zombies I've gotten lately, the idea of a zombie western appealed to me, and the Giant Bomb quicklook made it look awesome. I picked it up, and am looking forward to playing it. The rest of the DLC has all been multiplayer stuff, and after a day playing the multiplayer with a few people right after the game came out, I'm not particularly interested in trying any more of it. As such, if you're looking for opinions on the other, non-single player DLC, you'll need to check somewhere else.

Ah, thanks for the explanation, I didn't know which was multiplayer or single player. Quite an odd turn for a continuation... but it does actually sound like it could be fun.

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I spent about half an hour with it this afternoon before work (I would be playing it now, but have an apartment viewing in the morning, so I need to sleep at some point) and quite enjoyed what I played. It's more Red Dead, but with the humour really bumped up and the game a lot more streamlined. It's essentially a darkly comic spin-off of the main game. I won't go into too much detail, since spoilers abound from the word "go," but characters are being brought back in interesting ways and I found myself snorting a few times at what was being said. Don't think of it so much as a Red Dead expansion as a Red Dead horror-comedy fanfic made into a really fun experience by Rockstar. Again, only played it for a half hour, so I'll hold off on further comment, but so far so good.

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You can say that again angelababy, you can say that again.

This one is a really persistent bot.

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So, I started playing this as part of the metacritic challenge I am doing this year...

So far it is way better than any of the 3-D GTA games I have played. Travelling around the world isn't as annoying due to the fact that the horses control well and you aren't constantly causing random automobile accidents.

The world feels more alive by having less too, the random encounters make it amusing as you are constantly being distracted and mixing things up. Even if I ahve now shot three different guys all trying to attack hookers (it seems to be a popular pass-time).

The opening is amazingly dull, consisting of tons of cutscenes, shaky dialogue, and loading screens, but it picks up a little about 2 hours in.

It has struck me as one of those stoner games, one where you just let the whole thing wash over you. You do very little for hours on end but get tiny, incremental upgrades and advancements - much like most adequate JRPGs - you are never actually bored but the whole thing is never mind blowing.

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