Same Shelf at the Store

[Garple]

I was thinking about the line in Chris' song "Remember" where he says "Indie and casual and core/were on the same shelf at the store/they were one and the same" and now that I'm playing Diablo II I see how true that is and it's very interesting. I mean...that game is compulsive in the way that casual games are and it's very simple on the surface. You can just whittle away the hours doing the same thing over and over...and yet...I can tell you could be really hardcore about your play-style and enjoy it on a deeper level. What other games are open to this and what was the time-frame during which it took place...what are your favorite games of this nature and was this something people were aware of on some level at the time or is this more of a hindsight thing?

As someone who turned 21 a week ago...I think I may have been just a little too young to have been aware of this phenomenon (at the time I was probably just playing whatever Christmas gift I'd recieved for my Playstation or Super Nintendo).

Anyone who cares to...please just discuss this concept in general (however you want to approach it)...especially interested in what Chris has to say about this.

[n0wak]

I can tell you could be really hardcore about your play-style and enjoy it on a deeper level. What other games are open to this and what was the time-frame during which it took place...what are your favorite games of this nature and was this something people were aware of on some level at the time or is this more of a hindsight thing?

What you describe doesn't seem unique or like some generational thing, it seems to be good game design.

I think part of the nostalgia aspect to it is valid, but only for technical reasons. Games were pretty simple in those days because the technology wouldn't allow anything super complex. The good games, the ones we remember fondly, did more to stand out and had a kind of simple complexity to them. Super Mario World is pretty simple on a basic level, but it's solid enough and balanced enough to low a more hardcore approach to it (watch some of the speed runs and "super hard" play throughs on YouTube.)

But for every one of those there were many, many bad games that we easily forget. History has a way of making the good stuff seem like the norm. So, really, you didn't miss much.

[elmuerte]

Not the same timeframe, but much older: Daggerfall. If you know Morrowind, like that, but 20 times as large and diverse. I sunk a lot of time in that game.

[brkl]

Dude, Daggerfall would be like the least casual game I could possibly think of.

[Moelman]

Maybe any MMO is like this, I don't really know, but World of Warcraft is probably a great example. It is definitely not "hard", almost anyone can pick it up and play with any play style, casual or hardcore. The big thing most people who might be a more casual gamer may not be willing to invest is a lot of time, but if you don't mind paying, it doesn't require a large time investment to be fun. And then it obviously goes all the way to hardcore with the high-end raiders and PVPers.

[Irishjohn]

I would agree that WOW is a decent example of a game that can be "hardcore" or "casual."

I think a lot of it depends on the player. I just don't have the time to play games that I used to have, so to a certain extent, every game I play is "casual."

Sorry, not really answering your question! I mostly spent the 1980s playing point and click adventure games.

[BlarfMarfle]

The supposed divide between casual games and hardcore games is hard to talk about, because I'm not sure what people mean when they say it. Oftentimes, the distinction is put down to something equivalent to "complexity", as in "casual games are simple and hardcore games are hard". I don't think so.

I think that any dividing line is probably based on content and thematic elements than mechanics. When we talk about how the Wii has expanded the market, we mean that people who haven't traditionally played console games are now doing so, on the strength of essentially Wii Sports, Wii Play and maybe a few other games. The thing is, those games actually have a lot of mechanics to learn, and on the harder difficulty levels they can be tricky. But the aesthetic and controller is geared towards making people feel comfortable and safe, safe enough actually that Oprah and Ellen can stand up on stage and show off with it.

Or what about the music games? There are thousands of middle-age folks playing Rock Band Beetles, even though the controller is pretty complicated. The subject matter and presentation are attractive and approachable.

Are the flight simulator games my retired father plays hardcore or casual? He doesn't play any other video games and never has. But he can talk about the difference in various developers' simulation models in minute detail all day long. Distinctions like hardcore/casual make no sense. To me, it's hardcore but to him, it's just a "hobby".

[SoulChicken]

When I think casual I think Peggle. Dirty slut of a game.

[Patters]

When I think casual I think Peggle. Dirty slut of a game.

The Courtney Love of video games?

[elmuerte]

Dude, Daggerfall would be like the least casual game I could possibly think of.

Buying and decorating houses, or messing around with potions and spells, or just the simple exchange game you can play in Daggerfall are quite casual. And there's the thing of following up on rumors and other "social" quests.

Anyway.. I read the question not as being hardcore and casual, but more like hard core gaming, or simply pissing time away with simple things in the same game.

[DanJW]

I think a lot of fighting games are like this. The Street Fighter series especially is easily accessible, but has it's hardcore elite who take it very seriously. For the most part I've been put off by this massive potential difference in skills levels, but I'm currently being coached in SF4 by my brother. For me Soul Calibur is the most accessible series of this type, with an even smoother learning curve.

I know there are lots of older games like this, but I can't think of them right now. Gah!

[Moelman]

I think a lot of fighting games are like this. The Street Fighter series especially is easily accessible, but has it's hardcore elite who take it very seriously. For the most part I've been put off by this massive potential difference in skills levels, but I'm currently being coached in SF4 by my brother. For me Soul Calibur is the most accessible series of this type, with an even smoother learning curve.

I know there are lots of older games like this, but I can't think of them right now. Gah!

I think for Street Fighter IV, if you are not normally a fighting game player it is very hard to get the hang of and you really have to start at the lowest difficulty and work your way up. Maybe I just suck but I could hardly beat anyone on medium the first time I played.