Warren Spector's Disney project concept art

[DanJW]

Hey now, Big Fish was a good movie and didn't feel like something by Tim Burton. But yeah, everything else by him is crap.

I wouldn't say it was crap, but I agree his signature style is getting a little stale. Big Fish is the last time he did anything to surprise me, or generate any strong emotion.

[syntheticgerbil]

You know what's been bugging me? Why are we supposed to get excited about Warren Spector as a producer? Aren't we supposed to be more excited about who would be the lead designer? What exactly does a video game producer do?

I get the feeling it's similar to a movie producer as major person who manages, grabs the funds, and supports the team, but doesn't do the actual creative work. The movie producer is used for marketing purposes though and sort of held of as a creator for commercial purposes ("from the makers of," "from the people who brought you..."). The podcast had the short discussion about Miyamoto's override this week on the lead designer, but would an American video game producer do the same?

I mean this may be in a way working like the frustration I had over the announcement of The Goon CG movie which David Fincher is producing. Blur Studios is doing the animation with some as yet unnamed director and the comic book artist Eric Powell writing the script. Almost instantly after the announcement of David Fincher as a producer, everyone all over the comments sections of various blogs was talking about how they loved Seven, Fight Club, or Alien 3, so this should be amazing because he's such a visionary. But the guy is a producer on The Goon movie, not a director, yet Fincher fans were eager to increase his overall relevance to the project way beyond past a guy putting up funds. Is that what happens with video game producers? With Warren Spector? Harvey Smith was the lead designer on Deus Ex, so should he be more of the "creative head" and the person to thank for the success on that project?

Excuse me for my naivete in advance here. Especially because I'm kind of going beyond the topic and not understanding why he's supposed to be the brilliant mind behind System Shock and Deus Ex.

[Chris]

The role of a video game producer varies wildly--at the most fundamental level, there's a difference between a producer that works for a publisher, and one that works for a developer. Beyond that, different studios have different roles for that title. Spector conceived the Deus Ex idea, and served as its project director.

"Lead designer" can also mean a lot of different things, although not as many as "producer." Sometimes, "lead designer" is used to indicate the overall creative gatekeeper, although that's increasingly less common these days. "Creative director" is starting to become much more frequently used for that, and "project lead" (Spector's other title on Deus Ex) has also often been used in the same way, while "lead designer" often refers literally to the lead on the design team, rather than the lead on the project as a whole. I believe that was essentially Smith's role on Deus Ex.

I also haven't see Warren Spector generally credited as being the primary creative force on System Shock in the same way he is on Deus Ex. That tends to be credited more to Doug Church, who was the game's project leader. That game also had no credited lead designer.

[syntheticgerbil]

The role of a video game producer varies wildly--at the most fundamental level, there's a difference between a producer that works for a publisher, and one that works for a developer. Beyond that, different studios have different roles for that title. Spector conceived the Deus Ex idea, and served as its project director.

"Lead designer" can also mean a lot of different things, although not as many as "producer." Sometimes, "lead designer" is used to indicate the overall creative gatekeeper, although that's increasingly less common these days. "Creative director" is starting to become much more frequently used for that, and "project lead" (Spector's other title on Deus Ex) has also often been used in the same way, while "lead designer" often refers literally to the lead on the design team, rather than the lead on the project as a whole. I believe that was essentially Smith's role on Deus Ex.

Ah thank you. Creative director is another ball of confusion I necessarily don't get either, but I probably won't be following any creative directors in general. I tend to follow and buy games going by their lead designers, seeing as they generally get much more credit and seem to be a better indicator of a game's success (much like a movie director, I guess to draw an easy comparison). I guess this is more of something adventure games have taught me to pay attention to with the way Sierra and LucasArts touted their designers, but I sort of figured everyone's role tends to be nebulous and change from person to person and company to company.

I also failed to mention he was the project director on Deus Ex in the original post, even though I saw that as well.

I also haven't see Warren Spector generally credited as being the primary creative force on System Shock in the same way he is on Deus Ex. That tends to be credited more to Doug Church, who was the game's project leader. That game also had no credited lead designer.

This is really more from what I've seen and heard in various blog comments, not really me thinking of System Shock as "his" game.

[Chris]

Ah thank you. Creative director is another ball of confusion I necessarily don't get either, but I probably won't be following any creative directors in general. I tend to follow and buy games going by their lead designers, seeing as they generally get much more credit and seem to be a better indicator of a game's success (much like a movie director, I guess to draw an easy comparison). I guess this is more of something adventure games have taught me to pay attention to with the way Sierra and LucasArts touted their designers, but I sort of figured everyone's role tends to be nebulous and change from person to person and company to company.

I also failed to mention he was the project director on Deus Ex in the original post, even though I saw that as well.

This is really more from what I've seen and heard in various blog comments, not really me thinking of System Shock as "his" game.

Well, my point is that what you're saying is often inaccurate. For example, Ken Levine was BioShock's creative director. Its lead designer was Paul Hellquist (name another of his games, quick). Psychonauts' creative director was Tim Schafer. Its lead designer was Erik Robson (ditto).

And on the topic of LucasArts, Grim Fandango, like many LucasArts adventure games, had no lead designer; its project lead was Tim Schafer.

What I'm saying is that "lead designer" is not necessarily a useful indicator of who actually served as the game's overall creative force and gatekeeper.

[syntheticgerbil]

Well, my point is that what you're saying is often inaccurate.

I did understand what you said the first time, I'm not sure what this follow up post was about.

For example, Ken Levine was BioShock's creative director. Its lead designer was Paul Hellquist (name another of his games, quick). Psychonauts' creative director was Tim Schafer. Its lead designer was Erik Robson (ditto).

I actually did already know that Tim Schafer was not the lead designer of Psychonauts. Also he does have a writing credit, which is also enough reason for me to follow someone around. If I'm not mistaken, creative director is a newer term, but I find it to seem more nebulous than the other lead type of credits of the past.

And on the topic of LucasArts, Grim Fandango, like many LucasArts adventure games, had no lead designer; its project lead was Tim Schafer.

Well what you are saying here is mostly inaccurate with Grim Fandango being somewhat of an exception to the rule if you check the credits to LucasArts' adventures on Mobygames. Project lead seems to be a later term used by the company. Besides Grim Fandango, it is usually coupled with designer or lead designer in the same line or as another credit. I should note I don't only follow someone around if they are "lead designer" as plain "designer" will work just fine as well for me.

What I'm saying is that "lead designer" is not necessarily a useful indicator of who actually served as the game's overall creative force and gatekeeper.

Well as I already said, I do understand that. I did say "better indicator," not as if it is a failsafe indicator. I would imagine in most cases, the producer credit is more often less useful.

[Chris]

I did understand what you said the first time, I'm not sure what this follow up post was about.

Again, if a project has both a creative director and a lead designer, the creative director is pretty much guaranteed to be the one with more responsibility and creative direction on the project. You said you don't follow creative directors, just lead designers, and I'm saying that makes no sense. You responded to the Psychonauts point, but not in a sensical way, since following the lead designer of that game wouldn't be particularly useful. You said Schafer being the writer is enough, but like these other roles, that's going to differ in meaningfulness from game to game.

You also didn't address the BioShock point. That's an incredibly common structure in the industry -- if a game has a creative director, that person is overwhelmingly likely to be the thing that you seem to be thinking a lead designer is.

Also, if you're going by just "designer" and not "lead designer" then you're going to be "following around" half a dozen people on a given game, none of whom are likely to actually be the person who's really in charge of the game's overall direction. You're saying "lead designer" is a "better indicator," and I still maintain it's not.

My overall point here is, it's not worth just picking a title like "lead designer" and deciding any kind of overall following strategy based on it. That's even more the case with that specific role, since year by year it's less and less likely to actually refer to the kind of person you seem to want to follow. Using outdated early LucasArts terminology seems like an odd way to make that decision.

What makes more sense is just to figure it out on a game by game basis. But if you are going to have a hard and fast rule, you might as well at least go by "creative director" because that's the most likely role to be the thing you're trying to follow.

[syntheticgerbil]

Again, if a project has both a creative director and a lead designer, the creative director is pretty much guaranteed to be the one with more responsibility and creative direction on the project. You said you don't follow creative directors, just lead designers, and I'm saying that makes no sense.

But creative direction is a relatively new title when older games used to have only a lead designer or sole designer as the "gatekeeper" with no one credited as creative director. Even older on games where there is only artist and one programmer credited and no designer, I guess you could consider the programmer as the "lead designer."

That's why I brought up the adventure game point, even though you did not respond to what I said about Grim Fandango being the exception.

So I guess to me it seems odd when there is a creative director trumping a lead designer. It's even more confusing if sometimes the producer trumps the creative director over the lead designer as being the "gatekeeper" but also apparently not every time.

You responded to the Psychonauts point, but not in a sensical way, since following the lead designer of that game wouldn't be particularly useful. You also didn't address the BioShock point. That's an incredibly common structure in the industry -- if a game has a creative director, that person is overwhelmingly likely to be the thing that you seem to be thinking a lead designer is.

I meant I was already following Tim Schafer previously where he was credited as a designer or "project lead" (since there are no credited designers on Grim Fandango otherwise, besides "assistant designers," meaning to me the project lead is basically the designer to whom these people are an assistant to). So I really got Psychonauts more for his writing credit, not to follow the lead designer Erik Robson.

I don't know how to address your Bioshock point, since you condescendingly told me to start naming other games the designer has done (quick!), which I don't know. I also haven't played Bioshock and am not interested in it, so I would look stupid trying to force myself to say anything about it.

But, I do maintain just by looking at a lot of credits, that sure, this appears to be a common structure, but it's definitely a newer one. So I don't understand fully what a creative director does and I have looked up many articles and interviews before getting on the topic with you trying to figure out what their job entails, which all sort of gave conflicting answers, so in turn, I opted not to follow creative directors.

What I was trying to say is that I'm already made to follow lead designers or sole designers from a time where there were no creative directors. So if you are saying the "gatekeeper" idea is akin to what a creative director does currently that I mistakenly think a lead designer does currently, it would then make sense to use the lead designer or designer credit (when one or a few are credited with no lead) in games where there is no existing creative director as a good indicator then, right?

Also then since you explained it, if there is a creative director and a lead designer, then I should go from now on with the creative director. Makes sense.

Also, if you're going by just "designer" and not "lead designer" then you're going to be "following around" half a dozen people on a given game, none of whom are likely to actually be the person who's really in charge of the game's overall direction. You're saying "lead designer" is a "better indicator," and I still maintain it's not.

Well you misunderstand me. Of course I can't follow each designer in an AAA title with one lead designer, six people credited as just designers, and fifteen more people credited for additional design... I brought up the term designer, because many games often do not have a lead designer, especially smaller games, and on many LucasArts games there often ranged 1-3 people credited for just "designer."

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH LONG POST

[Chris]

My point with "name a game" wasn't to be condescending. I couldn't name one of their games either. That was my point--on those games (and many others), "lead designer" doesn't necessarily indicate the person to "follow." I wasn't trying to call you out, I was just trying to provide an illustration of my point about different development titles.

[syntheticgerbil]

Ah okay, I see now. Well I certainly learned a thing or two that is very helpful for me in the future in determining what games an OCD weirdo should buy. Also it's nice to understand what a creative director is akin to in plain terms over those long hard to follow articles I had found beforehand trying to understand. Thanks!

[Chris]

No problem! Video games!

[thorn]

I've yet to see it, but talking of stop motion animation (and taking this even more off its rails) have you seen the trailer for the new Fantastic Mr Fox? I hear its by the guys who did Nightmare Before Christmas, but looks more like Robot Chicken...

http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1810028004/trailer

For what it's worth, it was originally a collaboration between Wes Anderson and Henry Selick but then Henry (who directed Nightmare) left the project and directed Coraline, which is awesome. So now it's directed by Wes Anderson and doesn't have significant links to Nightmare Before Christmas.

Apparently the animators are the same ones who worked on Corpse Bride, though.

[UncleSpaggles]

For what it's worth, it was originally a collaboration between Wes Anderson and Henry Selick but then Henry (who directed Nightmare) left the project and directed Coraline, which is awesome. So now it's directed by Wes Anderson and doesn't have significant links to Nightmare Before Christmas.

Apparently the animators are the same ones who worked on Corpse Bride, though.

Thanks for the clarification. I will certainly pick up Corpse Bride at some point along with Coraline.

Chris & Gerbil, interesting read this morning.

[Alex P]

Epic Mickey is real, in this month's Game Informer magazine.

M-I-C-K-E-Y, M-O-U-S-E!

[George B]

*Paul Hellquist did Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway... where's my gold star?

I think this stuff looks amazing, I'm a sucker for that lowbrow art stuff where pop culture symbols are rendered with loving renaissance art technique (see: Mark Ryden)... plus Spector has a pretty solid track record.

*or at least that's what moby games says.